LEO's and CCW's

[bdickens]

On the flip side, my father in Texas was telling me that many of the officers are opposed to their "closet law." I believe it allows all felony free adults to carry in their car as long as it is in a "closet" (i.e. console or glove compartment). Many of the officers are saying that they are going to arrest anyone with a gun even if they are complying with the law. My guess is that they are unhappy with the lack of background checks. This would not apply to CCW or CHL.

1) It is not the place of an LEO to be opposed to or in favor of a particular law. It is the place of an LEO to enforce the law as it stands.


2) The "closet law" you so eloquently refer to is called the Motorist's Protection Act. It came about because for the longest time, it was illegal to carry a handgun in your vehicle unless you were "traveling." The courts were begging the Legislature to define "traveling" and they never would.

Finally in 2005, the Legislature clarified the law and said that if you are in your own car and not otherwise breaking the law, except for traffic violations, you were presumed to be traveling. A small handful of mostly urban District Attorneys, most notably Harris County's Chuck Rosenthal, said that they didn't care what the law was, if you got caught with a gun in your car you were going to jail and the courts would sort it out - "You might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride."

The Texas Legislature historically has taken a very dim view of local authorities going off and doing their own thing and ignoring their intent. So the very next session in 2007 (the Legislature meets for only six months every two years. God bless Texas!), they came down and said "Okay, Mr. Rosenthal, since you don't seem to understand our intent, let's see if we can make it even more clear for you." They basically removed the traveling exception and removed the defense to prosecution and just made it legal to go ahead and carry a handgun in your car as long as it is concealed. Thus was born the "Motorist's Protection Act of 2007."


So, if an LEO in Texas were to "arrest anyone with a gun even if they are complying with the law," he would be breaking the law and opening up himself and his department to legal liability. Texas LEOs tend to be well-versed in such laws and the Motorist's Protection Act was so well publicized when it took effect that you would have had to have been under a rock to not know about it.

 

[A-190]

no problems here. People who take the time to get proper CCW will and have never been our problem in the first place.

Besides, the CCW's are making for a more polite society......

 

[jaholder1971]

Most all of the LEOs around here do, too.

I went in to apply for my CHL a year ago, added a memp regarding a previous domestic battery arrest (dismissed) that I thought would hang up my license app.

Sherriff took a look, nodded and said "No Problem".

 

[gbran]

I'm in CA and in one of the most conservative counties. While CA is a "may issue" state, my county (Kern) is nearly "shall issue". As a matter of fact, I'm not sure a person can be elected to the top sheriff spot here unless they are pro CCW.

However, I had one bad incident on an out of town job near the SF bay area. I had to go to a jobsite during the nite to check on our equipment and was confronted by 2 cops. I was on foot BTW. After I told them I was carrying, it really went downhill fast. 3-4 other cruisers were sent and I stayed cuffed in the back of the patrol car while they desparately tried to figure out how to charge me with something. I was polite, but they seemed very confused and disapointed at having to let me go WITH my gun.

 

[BrianB]

Believe it or not, most of the CHICAGO police officers I know are pro-CCW! They know the stats, and are frustrated with the Chicago/Crook County politics.

 

[JustinL]

My CCW instructor was a retired small-town officer. My instructor here in Jacksonville is retired from the Air Force's OSI. According to his experiences, most JSO deputies are fairly pro-CCW, but there are a number who are opposed to any civilian gun ownership at all.

 

[rondog]

Question for all the LEO's.....

When you have a contact with a citizen, would you PREFER to know he/she has a CCW? Should people tell you, or keep it a secret unless you ask or find out on your computer?

I know most of you are pro-CCW, but are you "pro enough" to just "not want to know", or is this info that you want/need right up front?

Personally, I want the LEO to know I'm armed, so there's no surprises. And I'd think most LEO's would want to know, for their own safety and peace of mind.

Just wondering how y'all feel about this, since I've never had the opportunity to have this chat with a LEO in person yet.

 

[Treo]

When you have a contact with a citizen, would you PREFER to know he/she has a CCW? Should people tell you, or keep it a secret unless you ask or find out on your computer?

Interesting question, but with all due respect I don't care what their preference is as long as I'm not required to disclose I won't

 

[ROKK]

When you have a contact with a citizen, would you PREFER to know he/she has a CCW? Should people tell you, or keep it a secret unless you ask or find out on your computer?

I can't really imagine any LEO not wanting to know who is armed in any given situation. I think it would be better to disclose it up front than have them notice it on thier own.

 

[Rodentman]

Every LEO I have asked supports the shall issue CCW in MN. They note that the public thought there would be an increase in crime, but that hasn't happened.

I understand that in MN, a CCW holder is linked to license plates so an LEO will know I am a permit holder by running my plates. Hasn't happened yet.

I am required to disclose if I am carrying if asked.

 

[MedWheeler]

A resounding agreement to those who stated that rank-and-file troops in LE either don't care, or actually support, private carry. I did when I was in LE, and so did most, if not all, my colleagues.
When a post with this ambiguous a question on this matter pops up (this ain't the first by any means), I can only think that the poster is some unfortunate soul that lives in a LE-issue-controlled jurisdiction, and has just been turned down. Fortunately, for me at least, I live in Florida.

 

[Agent-J]

Hah, this post makes me laugh considering I'm in NY. It is for all intents and purposes IMPOSSIBLE to get a CCW permit for use in NYC unless the mayor or chief of police's personal # is in your cell phone... or you are famous and can write checks with 3-4 zero's on it.

I believe in NY it's a class E felony to even mention the word gun.

 

[GRIZ22]

I can't really imagine any LEO not wanting to know who is armed in any given situation. I think it would be better to disclose it up front than have them notice it on thier own.

I agree with this. The law may not require you to tell a LEO but I think any would feel better if you told him. I was a LEO for 31 years and would prefer someone tell me they're carrying. It answers the question before I see it.

Most LEOs are either pro CCW or don't care, if the law says it's legal it's legal. There are a minority of elistists anti-CCW and would be the ones most mass media would quote. Appointed LE officials reflect the opinions of who appointed them to keep their jobs. Elected LE officials usually voice the opinion that will get them re-elected.

 

[Jesse H]

City cop here. I like it when I run into good folks with guns. Most of the time I don't bother writing them tickets or checking for warrants.

 

[David904]

I've never had a negative interaction with an LEO due to carrying a firearm CCW or otherwise.

I did have one sort of incident with a young state trooper in CT. I got pulled over for speeding on the highway (70/55) and he lit into me. He didn't listen to me as I declared my CCW and the firearm on my person. Upon noticing my CCW permit that I handed him with my other paperwork, he checked himself and pulled up short - so to speak. He made a quick statement that I should have notified him right from the beginning that I was carrying.

I replied that I believed that I had but that we must have cross-talked, and that I regretted the confusion.

He said nothing more about it, was professional throughout the rest of the stop, did NOT disarm me, and gave me a ticket for 10 mph less than I was traveling.

I have always notified that I am carrying as a matter of courtesy for the officer.

 

[jaholder1971]

You're better off being up front with the cop and advising him early into the contact, even if you don't have to.

First, carrying with a permit isn't illegal. So telling him you're armed and presenting the permit isn't going to get you into trouble. Besides, most CCW permits are tied into you DL registries, so he'll know once he runs your DL.

Second, traffic stops and domestics are the 2 areas where cops get killed. He's already in a heightened state of awareness (or should be) and is already assuming you may be armed. What informing him does is confirm you might be armed and that you're legal to do so.

He might not lower his guard, but it does drastically reduce the chances that you'll get the officer's gun in your ear and/or yanked out of the car and bounced on the pavement or hood if he sees you armed, not knowing any better at the time.

 

[Deanimator]

Interesting question, but with all due respect I don't care what their preference is as long as I'm not required to disclose I won't

There's no question in Ohio. You HAVE to notify for an official encounter, IF YOU ARE CARRYING. Some officers apparently either don't know the law or try to push the envelope and hassle people for not notifying when they're NOT carrying (It's tied to your DL). I'm for obeying the law. I don't have to like having to notify when I'm carrying. I just have to do it. The cop doesn't have to like my NOT notifying when I'm NOT carrying. He just has to shut up and accept it. There are consequences when either of us decide to BREAK the law in this regard. I shouldn't expect any breaks from him if I don't notify when I'm armed (barring serious injury or the like). He shouldn't expect any breaks from me if he unlawfully hassles me for not doing something I don't have to do in the first place.

 

[Deanimator]

You're better off being up front with the cop and advising him early into the contact, even if you don't have to.

Uh, not so much:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=12577&forum_id=54&highlight=Fairfax

The Virginia Citizens Defense League reports three Fairfax County, VA police officers are involved in a false arrest of a North Carolina man.
**********************************************************

We haven't had any issues with the Fairfax County police in quite a while now. I have found them to be one of the best run police agencies in Virginia, stated Philip Van Cleave.

However, three officers tarnished that image last week when they unlawfully arrested a North Carolina resident who was legally carrying a handgun and had a North Carolina CHP.

Hold on tight - this is a weird story.

The gun owner was pulled over for running through a red light, a charge which the gun owner disputes.

The gun owner, believing that he had to disclose he was lawfully armed as they do in North Carolina, dutifully told the officer he had a NC CHP and was indeed armed.

The officer seemed to ignore the statement, but very shortly two more patrol units pulled up. The next thing the gun owner knew he is in a "felony stop" mode. He was asked to walk backwards towards the officers, who then disarmed and handcuffed him.

While trying to unloaded his gun, THEY DROPPED IT ONTO THE ROAD!

The two officers and a SERGEANT then proceeded to tell him that he was under arrested for:

1. Having hollow point bullets, which they claimed were illegal in Virginia (!)
2. Taking a loaded gun across the state line, which the gun owner was told was a FELONY (!)
3. Having a concealed gun that the police said he couldn't have since he was from North Carolina (!!)

His car and gun were impounded and he was taken off to a magistrate.

The magistrate looked at the charges and told the police officers that they had just made a false arrest.

The officers pointed out the possession of hollow point bullets. The magistrate asked, "are they teflon coated?"

"No," replied on of the officers.

"Then they are legal."

Trying to find something that would stick and justify the false arrest, one of the officers said, "We couldn't verify that his North Carolina permit is valid."

The magistrate looked at the permit, noticed the phone number on the back where one can call to verify the permit, called the number, and within a few minutes found out the permit was indeed valid.

The gun owner was ordered to be released.

After being released from custody, the gun owner was given a hard time by another officer about getting his gun back, but he did finally get it back.

If all of that isn't bad enough, the arresting officer went ahead and gave the gun owner a ticket for the alleged offense of running a red light!

In essence, with that brilliant move, the officer was practically BEGGING the gun owner to PLEASE sue Fairfax Count for the false arrest!

I have already talked to my high-level contact with the Fairfax County PD about this entire situation and the gun owner has filed a formal complaint.

In the past, Fairfax County PD has been very good when such internal investigations are required. Now we will wait and see what happens.

What is clear is that Fairfax County PD needs to educate its officers on:

1. Possession of hollow point bullets
2. Reciprocity laws
3. Lawful carriage of firearms across state lines
4. Safe gun handling (a few years ago unsafe gun handling by an officer cause a gun to discharge, killing an unarmed, handcuffed man)





-------------------------------------------
***************************************************************************
VA-ALERT is a project of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
(VCDL). VCDL is an all-volunteer, non-partisan grassroots organization
dedicated to defending the human rights of all Virginians. The Right to
Keep and Bear Arms is a fundamental human right.

VCDL web page: http://www.vcdl.org

So, would you say that advising when not necessary worked out well for the person noted above?

 

[Deanimator]

Dean, your illustration is the very reason Treo and I don't believe in disclosing unless we have to.
Too much chance for pain,very little chance for gain.

I spent an hour or two looking for that citation, but I think it's so important that it was worth the effort. This is probably the third or fourth time I've quoted it in similar discussions. It certainly bears repeating.

Obeying the law and being polite (proper, NOT obsequious) are all you're required to do and all you SHOULD do. Doing anything else inculcates in the police an expectation that you HAVE to do other things. That's not good for you. In the long run, it's not even good for them.

 

[Harley Quinn]

So Sid do you think all what you mentioned is good for the normal average everyday citizen and their protection from untrained folks, running around carrying a gun...

I mean "like wow even" you need a lic to drive a car?

If there no holding (waiting) period for buying a handgun? Do they have the new and improved computer system? Or is it just a phone call away? And carring one on your hip all over town has to be a real pleasure...especially into banks, post offices and locations that tell you not to (their rights).

This is a list of all the various states and their rules;

http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/issues/?page=waitxstate

I think I see a change coming on for some of these states, sorry to say.
Or is it just better for the citizen that gets hit with the firepower as the crime goes down ,and then who pays for their hospital bills etc.? The city and state they live in?

Yea I am a ccw in CA and a NRA member so just answer the questions.

Regards

 

[jaholder1971]

Deanimator,

Respectfully, if their reaction to a CHL was to pull a felony car stop what do you think their reaction would have been had he not ID'd at all and they found his carry piece? They'd have probably blasted the poor SOB all over the sidewalk.

Virginia gunowners have a full on legal/political battle with many of their city's LEOs and I can tell you this isn't happening everywhere.

 

[Deanimator]

Respectfully, if their reaction to a CHL was to pull a felony car stop what do you think their reaction would have been had he not ID'd at all and they found his carry piece?

The same, and equally unlawful.

I'm seeking an update on OCDO. Hopefully he's suing them as individuals as well as suing their agency.

I wonder if they know the sheriff who'll be confiscating their belongings for the auction after the judgement?

 

[Treo]

(most parts of) Arizona also grants the right to (open) carry that weapon with no licensing/training whatsoever.

Governments don't grant rights they acknowledge them.

what do you think their reaction would have been had he not ID'd at all and they found his carry piece?

Better than excellent chance they'd never have found it

 

[dfunde01]

"A resounding agreement to those who stated that rank-and-file troops in LE either don't care, or actually support, private carry. I did when I was in LE, and so did most, if not all, my colleagues.

When a post with this ambiguous a question on this matter pops up (this ain't the first by any means), I can only think that the poster is some unfortunate soul that lives in a LE-issue-controlled jurisdiction, and has just been turned down. Fortunately, for me at least, I live in Florida."

I apologize if my question was ambiguous. I live in GA, a shall issue state, and I have had my CCW permit for over 30 years. Several instances of harassment have been cited on this thread in Richmond County GA, Fairfax County VA, and in Northern CA. I have seen several others recently in Atlanta and am curious as to what, if anything, has changed in the LEO community to cause an apparent increase in the number of LEO's that appear to object to a citizen legally having a CCW. My personal experience has been that LEO's are supportive of CCW permits. At least the dozens I have met over the years have been.

 

[Mr.1973]

Need to know:

Which towns/cities/states have Pro-CCW/personal firearm protection, state legislature/city/county officials?

Question 2: How is your local job market, for say ummmm......a Computer Aided Design/Drafting Technician.

Get back to me, please.

Thanks.