Lessons from a retired Marine

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More to the point of the thread, I'm thinking about clearing leather the moment someone implies a threat against my life. If there are guns drawn, the second they arn't paying attention is the second they're getting lit up. If it's knives, I'm drawing the gun immediately to try to diffuse the situation by a show of force without resorting to actual fire. In a situation like the Marine's, I'd try to comply unless the robbers hassled the customers--if it was just a register grab, i'd keep to myself, but if they targeted customers as well, I'd be looking for the first best opening to draw up and let them have it, because I might not get a second chance if they're intent on doing harm to anyone. I do not believe it wise to trust in any degree that a criminal will not hurt you or someone else just because he says so.
 
MInd set, skill set, tool set...... in that order

The Marine obviously had the first two down, and I believe he would have achieved a suitable outcome with just about any piece in his hand, loaded with just about any ammo.
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That is exactly what I have been trying (unsuccessfully) to say from my first post.
 
NEVER assume that the criminal will abide by some promise not to kill you if you comply.
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Wise words. The criminals weapon makes the statement: "I am willing to kill you." So, kill him first. Anything coming out of his mouth should be disregarded.
 
John Blitz wrote: "I don't see shot placement as an answer to a larger hand gun being better but I keep seeing it as an excuse, its a red herring." I think some people are able to shoot smaller calibers/guns easier and therefore attain dominance with them that they might not be able to acheive with a larger caliber/weapon. The Marine from what was said didn't get the gun up to eye level, so was using point shooting techniques. I agree that the Marine would have prevailed with whatever caliber/weapon he used, because of strategy and the element of surprise. The one thing perhaps he can be faulted for was his momentary lack of awareness at the outset. How many of us have done the same thing?
ll
 
i agree with effective shot placement and training is more important than caliber size but if your able to carry a bigger caliber in my opinion that should be a important consideration also
 
.22s were used to pop the Munich massacre Perps and is true they were head shots. All controlled with regards to time, place and situation. Our Marine had no control in a predetermined planned out way; he reacted. I am just glad it turned out the way it did. Arm the gazelles and lets see what the lions do?
 
The truth of the matter is having a gun is better than not having one. Being skilled with one is better than not being skilled with one. And being lucky beats being good any day of the week.

Exactly.


Quote:
The second robber was hit two inches above the heart with a .45 yet was able to run ~300 yards. How would a .22 (even a magnum), .25, .32, etc. have fared?

Likely just as well as the marine's 45ACP hits. I would be willing to bet that after the marine's first shot, let alone the first hit, the first robber's hostile intentions had evaporated and that both robbers were only interested in fleeing the scene...
__________________
The best learning hurts.
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The thing is that no one knows how the perp would have fared after being hit with a lesser caliber. With a shot placed that close to the heart, tissue "may" have caused a deviation in the bullet path such that it could have penetrated the heart or aorta, in which case the perp probably would not have gone 50 yards much less than 300.

What if questions are just that, "what if " questions. No one can never know the answer because the situation cannot or will not ever be duplicated with the other tool(caliber) used. Anything else is just opinion!!
 
jkrph wrote: "The thing is that no one knows how the perp would have fared after being hit with a lesser caliber" So true. With lighter recoil the shot may have been lower(as into the heart)or more shots may have been fired causing more bleeding etc. We'll never know. We do know who prevailed.
ll
 
I don't know if I'll ever bring "enough" gun to a bad situation. I do know that I carry what I enjoy shooting at the range.

I feel no inclination whatsoever to taylor my lifestyle to worry about BGs by buying specific SD weapons, ammo, and calibers.

If that's not good enough, well rats! We've all got to die sometime.:scrutiny:
 
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To the Lone Haranguer:

As a Marine Corps veteran fresh from Active Duty, I do find conflict with some of the things you mentioned lesson-wise.

To be fair, number one was right on. I would've done the same thing. Same with number two, and I agree with number four (and 4a)

Number three, however, I have problems with. You are potentially making a VERY wrong assumption that a Marine without a locked and loaded weapon is in a disastrous spot. Trust me, a Marine is lethal with, or without a gun in condition 1 in hand. True, we do specialize in the best (no contest at all) firearms training out there, and many firearms instructors and range officers are Marine veterans, but we also train in adequate hand-to-hand combat. I've seen old coot Marines kick the butt of a guy, or guys who are in their teens, 20s, or 30s. For that, I don't mess with "old salts" in any way, shape, or manner.

On number five, one can debate whether missing the lethal shot was deliberate or not. I won't get into that.

On number six: the rule is right on, and the quote is good, but I think we need to reexamine what this Marine did overall. Again, re-look at 4/4a. "Years of training." Here's a good analogy for my point if it's unclear: who'd win the fight: a person in their 20s with a fresh black belt from Tiger Schulmann's, or an Okinawan Karate Grandmaster who's hitting his 70s? Impressive shooting you say? Dude, he's a Marine with years of training! What'd you expect?

Anyway, it's a great article and good points have been made. I'll leave it at that.
 
The marine was a pilot. I would like to know how much firearm training he had.

This is an important example that I'd read before finding it here. As a new father I worry how to defend against such badguys with a small child in tow. I'm not so willing to let any child be victimized.
 
Another thing to consider is weather thouse criminals were under influence of drugs. There had been cases in Vietnam, Iraq and indeed Florida, where more than shots and blown off body parts didn't stop the attacker.
 
bobby68 said:
The marine was a pilot. I would like to know how much firearm training he had.

This is an important example that I'd read before finding it here. As a new father I worry how to defend against such badguys with a small child in tow. I'm not so willing to let any child be victimized.
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The same as any other Marine.

A Marine is a Rifleman, first and foremost.
 
The same as any other Marine.

A Marine is a rifleman, first and foremost.
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Yes and no.

Yes, every Marine is a rifleman.
But not every Marine gets equal trigger time using rifles and pistols once they graduate from Boot Camp.

It's the same in the Army....
Every soldier is a rifleman, first and foremost.
Every soldier is trained as a rifleman in Basic Training, without exception.
And every soldier qualifies with his rifle every year, without exception.
When the bullets start flying the cook drops his spoon and grabs his rifle, the mechanic drops his wrench and grabs his rifle, the clerk drops his pen and grabs his rifle, etc...
But a soldier who's MOS happens to be dental assistance, and who happens to be stationed in a hospital does not get the same trigger time, all year long, as a soldier who's MOS is infantry.
 
The marine was a pilot.
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My understanding is that all Marine and Navy pilots go through SEAR school....

and though this is not a program robust with firearms training, it will definately toughen up your mental capacity...

sleep and food deprivation, crawling though the dung and urine pit, waterboarding....

they get it all at SEAR school.

This according to my good friend who flew the LAMPS MK III (ASW chopper)

we also train in adequate hand-to-hand combat.
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Based on the description of my coworker in the USMC Reserve, the McMAP program is pretty impressive. He's a skinny guy and he's always turning up on Monday mornings after drill weekends with some pretty significant aches and pains from McMAP
 
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One of the things I notice lots of people saying, "I carry <this>, I think it's enough gun. I won't need a bigger caliber or more rounds..." and they may be right. In lots of situations, 5 shots from your 38 snubbie probably ARE enough. The thing is, the first time you need 6? You're pretty well screwed. They may fall under the heading of "that's the best I can carry" for x,y, and z reasons, but they are only good enough if they are good enough. "Better than nothing" is always better than nothing, but not necessarily good enough. Same with smaller calibers. With 15 rounds I can handle a situation that calls for 5. I can also handle 6, 7, 8,....

John
 
I think Creature and others have a good point. If the Marine had been carrying a CZ83(13 rounds of 380) the first robber would have been just as dead and the Marine might have hit the second robber more than once. The article doesn't give the range of the first shooting, but it appears to be very close. If a person survives three shots in the chest from a 380 at 10 feet or less, its just blind luck. This is not to say that 15 rounds of 9x19 would not be better, but it would be more difficult to conceal.
 
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My understanding is that all Marine and Navy pilots go through SEAR school....
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That would be SERE school...Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape.
BTDT, July/August 1982.
No firearms training involved. Some really good life lessons, though...:)
 
My line is a determination that someone is a real threat. Once this line is crossed there is no return. I do not immediately react but the decision to act has been made and I move on to planning for the best chance of success.

I expect no reaction from good body hits. Beyond dropping like a rock the only reactions I've ever noticed from living targets are very subtle, a slight stumble or an odd shiver. My best hope of safety is to continue shooting until the threat no longer exists.

You do shoot as you train. New platforms will point this out very quickly. Habits do not transfer well.
 
Fully agree with the op and by extention the marine involved. It was actually a piece of fiction where I read the quote, but it's no less relevant. To paraphrase that quote: If a bad guy is looking to take you somewhere, something worse is about to happen to you.

Sure, maybe it won't, but then you wouldn't be carrying a firearm on a maybe, would you? That and other events defined my choke point years ago. They can have money, but the moment they alter that arrangement, all bets are off for me. Even then, 9-11 clearly advertised there are no guarantees any more in how somebody should behave. They should take their money and go. Maybe they won't. Will you take the chance?
 
I too am curious where he got his training. At 71 years of age in 2007, his military career would have been in the 1950s and 1960s. (I believe it was mentioned in the article that he flew JFK and LBJ.) Then, as now, there was not a lot of emphasis on fighting with handguns. I doubt if SERE training was around back then, either, at least in its present form. As a civilian airline pilot, there would have been no training in handgun fighting. To perform the duties of a military officer and a pilot requires a great deal of mental discipline. It seems likely he was self taught.
 
Yes, the article said he was part of the marine one squadron. I wondder how much practice was from that responsibility, how much on his own.

Then there was reports of badguys family upset that marine "took the law into his own hands". Is this city a high crime area? It seems obvious people shouldn't have to trust the badguy not to harm them- the lethal threat is obvious.
 
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