Let me know if i'm wrong here... (possible need to FL resize my brass)

[Detritus]

Ok bear with me, today has been a frustrating one. I'm tired, sore, and kinda grumpy. so in light of my mental state I figured i'd "run this by the rest of the room" so to speak and make sure I'm understanding what's going on (or at least what is Most likely going on.


Took the first batch of (rifle) handloads I've made in months to the range today and had an issue.

most rounds bolt closure was a bit stiff and about 10 out of 25 required some coaxing to extract ( a few i had to knock out with a cleaning rod, this is where and why i packed it up for the day).
since closing the bolt was stiff, as well as extraction I put this down to a brass/sizing issue and not pressure, and I think I know why this happened and the appropriate steps to take. but i want to check with others first since i no longer have face to face access to anyone more knowlegeable about reloading than myself.

Ok Here are the load particulars of the batch of 25 fired:

• .308win
• Winchester brass
• Win Large rifle primers
• 45-45.8gr Varget (5-rounds per step, each step +0.2gr)
• 155gr Hornady A-Max
• 2.810" OAL
• neck sized in Lee collet Die, have lost track of times reloaded

rifle is a Rem 700 SPS-Varmint

Now, what I THINK is going on is that it is time to either Full Length resize this batch of brass, or bump the shoulders back (which i've never done btw, always either Neck or just full-on FL sized, never anything in between), I think the shoulders are being jammed against the front of the chamber, not sure how to describe that, hoping you know what i mean.

Is my logic wrong, is there another culprit i'm missing? it sure as the devil can't be an effect of OAL since they're loaded to mag length and Remingtons are notorious for long throats.

Any input or advice here is welcome, like i said i'm at a mental state due to other things going on that I want to make sure i'm on the right track with how to remedy this.

Thank you for your time

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Neck sizing only works so long before you need to full size the brass. Of course it varies but usually every 4th or 5th loading will need a full size to bump the shoulder back just a bit. You are correct about needing to full size the brass, that will fix your problem...

 

[Detritus]

Neck sizing only works so long before you need to full size the brass. Of course it varies but usually every 4th or 5th loading will need a full size to bump the shoulder back just a bit. You are correct about needing to full size the brass, that will fix your problem...

I knew that's what i remembered from 18 years ago (when i first started seriously loading for accuracy), and 4th or 5th loading sounds about right for this batch.
thank you for the confirmation. I now know how i'll be spending my next few free nights...

Kinda funny in a way but the last time I got "serious" about my loads and worked with a single batch of brass*, i was shooting a .223 and for that rifle and that batch of brass I was getting probably 10 loadings without issue. and when you have close to 1K pieces of brass, getting 8-10 loadings means you can go a long dang time between having to touch a FL Die..

*the Savage 110FP I had at that time wasn't picky about brass, as long as the bullet, powder load and Primer were the same, it would make little ragged 5-shot holes all day long regardless of who's name was stamped on the casehead. So for the longest time i didn't really bother to segregate my brass.

 

[gamestalker]

Just use your FL die to bump the shoulders back. This can be accomplished without using a case length gauge if you carefully chamber check the first piece of brass while adjusting the FL die down a little bit at a time. I say carefully because if you accidentally bump to much, head space will suffer and possibly enough to develope a premature case head separation issue.

Here is how I've set shoulder / head space before using a case length gauge in the past. First of all, try closing the bolt on one of the cases that is suspected of needing bumping. If it has any more resistence than closing on an empty chamber, than you deffinitely need to set your shoulders back .002" - .003" using your FL die. Set your FL die up so that it is just barely touching the shell holder, then just continue adjusting it down in .002" or less increments until a case being hand chambered will fall back out of the chamber with just gravity alone. Note, make sure your chamber and brass are free of any residue or you could get a false feel for resistence. Once you have it adjusted to that point, try clsing the bolt on that case. If the bolt closes with normal resistence, and extracts with normal resistence, your ready to resize all of them.

Also check to be sure your OAL isn't causing the problem, such as the bullet contacting the lands.

GS

 

[Detritus]

Also check to be sure your OAL isn't causing the problem, such as the bullet contacting the lands.

It's not, all 25 rounds were loaded to the exact same OAL (2.810" Max standard length) which is below (slightly) Mag length for .308 in a Rem 700 (which are known to have long throats/leades in the factory barel), and not all rounds had chambering or extraction issues. If it was OAL,there would have been a consistent issue with all of the rounds from the batch.


Maybe getting the my FL die set up to just bump the shoulder will fix the issue I have with it. It's an old RCBS with an odd vent hole in one side, when set up "normally" in my press the dang thing winds up squeezing lube into the threads of it's lock ring (a Lee style without set screw, the original broke when i first installed the die on my current press 3 years ago) , and i gotta watch it to make sure it doesn't shift.
I need to buy a Lee FL sizer and retire that old RCBS, but i just never have gotten around to it

 

[Blue68f100]

Your using way too much lube if it's getting up to the vent hole. Switch over to the Imperial Sizing wax and you will not have that problem at all. The OLD RCBS thick lube was bad on doing that if you were not careful. Just make sure you clean your die good before sizing to make sure the vent hole is clear.

 

[rsrocket1]

AngelCD is right. Just use your full length resizing die to bump the shoulder back to where the resized empty case easily chambers and extracts from your gun. As a precautionary step, I do that with each of my fired cases every time I deprime/resize the neck. I only load 50-100 at a time so it doesn't take too much extra time to take an empty case, chamber it and extract it.

Sort of like doing a "plunk" test with an autoloading pistol barrel when reloading pistol rounds, just a couple of extra seconds to ensure no frustrations at the range.

 

[Slamfire]

I consider neck sizing and partial neck sizing to be sloppy reloading procedures and your experience of stuck cases just validates my opinion.

If you start with an interference fit case you are going to end up with an interference fit case.



Full length size and set up your sizing die with a Wilson type case gage. Size to gage minimum if you shoot the stuff in a number of rifles or just bump the shoulders back 0.003" for that particular rifle.

 

[helotaxi]

I consider neck sizing and partial neck sizing to be sloppy reloading procedures and your experience of stuck cases just validates my opinion.

If you start with an interference fit case you are going to end up with an interference fit case.

They're only sloppy reloading procedures if done in a sloppy manner. You can neck size only without ending up with an interference fit as long as you follow diligent procedures and monitor what's going on.

Each time the brass is fired it work hardens a bit more and eventually you'll get to the point where it no longer springs back off the chamber wall like it used to. At this point you need to move the shoulder back, possibly squeeze the body a bit and ideally anneal the neck and shoulder area. This puts the case back to "like new" and you can go back to neck sizing.

Some rifles and cartridges won't allow you to neck size at all though and require you to move the shoulder back every time. Both of my WSMs, a .270 and a 7mm in Savage and Browning rifles respectively, allow the case to expand well beyond allowable length when measured with a case gage and if not fully sized, and sized hard with a full press cam over on a die 1/4 turn or more down from contact with the shell holder, reloads will not chamber. I blame the extra bolt thrust from the fat cased high pressure round for this. .308, .223 and .243 have no such issues in my rifles and I'm on 5+ neck-sized only reloads for my .243s at this point and at least that many on some of my .308 brass without the slightest bit of increased effort to chamber or extract.

 

[243winxb]

since closing the bolt was stiff, as well as extraction

Extraction after firing should be normal, as the brass expands to the chamber and springs back, unless the load is over pressure. The web area is not sized by FL dies. It can be expanded from over pressure, causing the problem.

 

[helotaxi]

If it's stuffed into the chamber to begin with, it will still be stuffed into the chamber after firing because the brass has nowhere to expand in the first place and you can't have springback without expansion. Sticky expansion isn't just because of an expanded web area. I've forced cases into the chamber, like when I first discovered that the Browning 7WSM was really tight, that required some percussive persuasion on the bolt handle to extract the loaded round.

 

[Detritus]

If it's stuffed into the chamber to begin with, it will still be stuffed into the chamber after firing

Exactly,

the only reasons I didn't pack that rifle and ammo up after the first 5 shot group Sat. was that I'd only brought the one rifle and box of ammo, I'm stubborn and didn't want to leave the range less than 10 mins after i came in the gate, and the rifle/ammo was performing in a manner that while annoying, made sense and didn't point imediately to overpressure.

If i'd have expereinced normal chambering and sticky extraction i'd have packed it in right there come home and pulled every dang one of them.

 

[243winxb]

If only neck sizing, soon or later the brass will no longer chamber, this is true. The chamber may be oval or the bolt face is not square to the chamber.

 

[918v]

Each time the brass is fired it work hardens a bit more and eventually you'll get to the point where it no longer springs back off the chamber wall like it used to. At this point you need to move the shoulder back, possibly squeeze the body a bit and ideally anneal the neck and shoulder area. This puts the case back to "like new" and you can go back to neck sizing.

That's not accurate.

The rate of springback increases with hardness, not the other way around. What causes the cases to stick is brass flow and the fact that the breech face is not square. Every time the case is fired it conforms to the chamber and the crooked breechface. You do not always chamber the case the way it came out so it gets progressively more difficult to chamber. Note benchrest rifles are totally square and people are able to shoot 30 or so shots out of a single case with neck sizing alone, allthewhile running 65,000 PSI.

If you want to be able to do the same, have your action blueprinted and your barrel set back by an appropriate amount.

 

[Detritus]

Have you noticed that the trim length gets longer after FL sizing, when compared to the fired case

(Saw the pre-edit version in my email and was mentally answering this when i clicked the link)

these cases have only ever been through FL sizing Die once, and that was when they were Virgin brass. They're part of a batch of 150 i bought to replace the really crappy PPU brass i had when i first started working with this rifle.

So basicly i won't really know anything about trim length after FL sizing till sometime this week. I DO know that there was a slight shrinkage in length of the once fired cases compared to when they were fresh from the Die prior to first loading (after first firing few made contact with the cutter on my Lee trimmer), if that helps.

 

[Hondo 60]

Full-Length Resize - New Brass, Range Pickups, Brass Given To You, Brass Bought By You, & for all semi-autos.

Neck Resize - Brass fired by you in a bolt action or similar.

Those are my rules. Hope this helps.

 

[918v]

So basicly i won't really know anything about trim length after FL sizing till sometime this week. I DO know that there was a slight shrinkage in length of the once fired cases compared to when they were fresh from the Die prior to first loading (after first firing few made contact with the cutter on my Lee trimmer), if that helps.

Cases normally shrink during firing as they expand to seal the chamber walls.

 

[homatok]

Since only some of them will not chamber easily, I would at least check the "trim-to" length, especially if your PFLR involves using a standard "push-in pull-out" expander plug.