lets talk reliable, cheap, rugged hi-capacity rifles.

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I love my AR, and I want another M4gery, but I'm looking to pick up something I don't feel like I need to baby as much. Something that isn't as temperamental. I'm just a neanderthal that grew up shooting pumps, single shot shotguns, autoloading 22's and SKS's. So I want something crude but reliable and simple, cheap and effective. I'm not so sure a WASR can be truly considered "reliable", as much as I like them. And the "good" AK's are as much as an AR or MORE than a decent assembled AR these days, so probably no thank you on that one. I HAVE considered converting a 7.62 Saiga.... decent, non-collectible m1 Carbine perhaps? Too bad this isn't 1995, I'd get 3 or 4 SKS's and a kiddie pool full of ammo for what we consider "cheap" these days :D


Caliber doesnt matter. Kinda prefer something a little bigger than .223, but am not really dead set on this. I want something that cycles dead reliable, isnt temperamental about ammo or conditions, acceptably accurate, 10 rd mags and up...I have no experience with the Mini. Also don't care about a ton of aftermarket parts. A sturdy wood stock is fine with me.

Thoughts?
 
I don't have one myself, but I can't imagine how a Saiga doesn't fit your needs just about exactly. They're around for less than $400 these days.

Personally, I'd do a "partial" conversion to put a nice butt stock, pistol grip, and G2 trigger in it and put in the guide so I can run AK mags (and otherwise follow up on 922(r) compliance) and call it GREAT.

But you really don't even HAVE to do that stuff. Some folks are running them "as-is" and seem to like them. They sure meet your criteria.

[A nice M1 Carbine would be neat, but they're starting at over $500 these days, and, as cool as it is, the .30 Carbine cartridge isn't much, compared to the 7.62x39.]

-Sam
 
it's definitely up for consideration. I do like the M1 carbine though too. From what I hear the Saiga converted properly is pretty much the best AK we can get, for the most part? Besides something like a Vector or Arsenal...
 
Nothing wrong with the WASR at all! The only thing is the front sight might need to be adjusted, and the gun itself is not that pretty, but other than that it is 100% reliable!
 
nothing wrong with the ones ive shot except that the sights BREAK off being pulled out of a soft case, the outright PAINFUL trigger slap, the routine jam on a squeaky clean and oiled gun, the mismatched parts and overall frankensteined weapon.


i like them, but i would not call them high quality. instead of spending 450 OTD on one, I think I could do better spending a little more or less on something else.
 
Well, yes, the Saiga is very well thought-of, as an AK, because they're original production guns (not rebuilt parts kits) built in the Russian factory that makes their Kalashnikov AKMs for the military.

They're built as semi-auto only, and then "dressed up" so that they meet the requirements of UCC 18, 925(d)(3) as "sporting" so they can be imported. If you want to convert one to use regular AK mags, or do much of anything else to it, you'll need to make it compliant with UCC18, 922(r) which is the "parts count" deal. Replace enough parts (get the total number of 'counted' parts made overseas at 10 or less) and the gun becomes "made in the USA" and thus, legal.

You can convert a Saiga "all the way," but that takes a bit of advanced tweaking to get real AK-74 or AKM front handguards and front end parts to attach. If it was my rifle, I wouldn't bother. I kind of like the more modern look of the Saiga front end. I'd just add the bullet guide so AK mags would work, and I'd reconfigure the trigger group so I could add a nice buttstock and decent pistol grip.

As an aside: An Arsenal or Lancaster or whatever are just (usually nicely made) rebuilds of foreign "parts kits" -- rifles that were AKMs or AK-74s or whatever and then were cut into parts and imported as spare parts -- on receivers (and now with barrels) made in the U.S. Same thing as all the folks doing home-builds off of Romanian "G" parts kits some years ago. (But with nice refinishing and good QC...hopefully.)


-Sam
 
look, get whatever gun you want, but don't bash the AR as "temperamental" because YOUR AR was built by 'a guy' who doesn't know how to put a gas block on

none of my ARs are the least bit temperamental
 
No problem with my tempermental AR. If all of the components are installed correctly that rifle will run just fine.
 
:uhoh: Something you don't have to baby? An AR! Who babies an AR. Throw that thing down the drive way to scratch it up real nice. Then you won't feel so bad about using it hard, the way it was intended.

I guess you could build an AK. But AK's aren't really all that cheap. Could just builds a simple AR without optics in a larger caliber. And even a non collectable M1 is at least $600 if its in decent shape. (M1's usually come with free rust, pitting, dinged crowns, and break ever time I touch them!)

Nothing uglier than a new wear free AR with that awlful new gun smell.
 
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All the "temperamental" ARs I've used became reliable when a quality mag was used.

No real magic. Use quality mags and keep the bolt-to-carrier fit well lubed. Regular cleaning is good but is not essential (outside of fine sand desert conditions) if you follow those two rules. 99% of the jams I experience are attributable to magazine issues. Right now, years after the AWB expired, various brands of quality, reliable mags can be had for $9-14 each depending exactly what you want.

Oh, and the longer the gas system the less temperamental the gun is, though the M4/16" can still be made to work just fine.
 
relax, relax. I love AR's. Temperamental wasn't the right word. Let's replace it with "something I don't feel as bad beating up on".


And I'd love to have a .308 AR, but from what I see they're all terribly expensive even to build. Maybe I'm wrong. And I'd want it in carbine length... As far as building an FAL from parts, now there's an idea. Any place you'd recommend to find/look at prices for FAL parts? I didn't know they were modular and "buildable" like an AR. I've heard too many bad things about people's CETMES or I'd consider one of those. I'm trying to keep the choice limited to an effective and more importantly, COMMON ammo choice with something I can get at least 10 rd mags or use stripper clips forl. I'm also not real well versed on the difference between .308 winchester and 7.62x51, I'd like to shoot both if possible.
 
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I like the "Saiga Solution." I have an unconverted one and am happy with it. A mid-priced AK might also be a solution. Yugo underfolders are about the "middle-of-the -market." I have a Century Yugo and apart from 3 break-in jams at its first trip to the range, it shoots like a champ.
 
If I went Saiga, I'd probably just do barely enough to have it legally take AK mags. Looks are nowhere near as important as function.


I'm actually now considering a used Mini 14 into the mix. Yeah, I know people hate them because of the accuracy issues. But the accuracy can't be THAT bad on an older one, can it? Reliability over accuracy for me any day. As long as the accuracy is DECENT.

What's a decent price for a 5+ year or older mini in good shape?
 
get a rack grade cmp carbine, and clean up the stock. nothing else is even close to cheap, besides an sks, but you said hicap, and the carbine beats it by 5.
 
good luck, used mini's seem to go down about 70 dollars from new prices around here.
 
Too bad this isn't 1995, I'd get 3 or 4 SKS's and a kiddie pool full of ammo for what we consider "cheap" these days
Click to expand...
Not true, kiddie pools were much more expensive back then. :neener:

I would (and did) have to go with the M1 Carbine, for cheap and reliable, and you get lightweight as a nice bonus. Others that you should consider are the Saiga that you mentioned, as well as Mini-30s (which now have 20rnd factory magazines available).

:)
 
You could get a $600 CMMG bargain-bin AR, or a $660 Del-Ton, and not feel bad about beating it up!

If you want .308, the DPMS Sportical 308 can be had around $850, and various DPMS 308 models are under $1000.
 
+1 for Saiga; I have a .223, no conversion. Got it new for $270. Hundreds of rounds of the cheapest steel-cased ammo available, and never a hiccup. Ugly, yeah . . . poor sights .. . and the trigger is abysmal at first, but you can get used to it, or convert. No need for a bullet guide if you buy Surefire mags, and they come in up to 30-rd capacity, IIRC, but you need to swap out some other part to make those legal -- I made my own forend, with lots of airflow.
Go here for everything Saiga:

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showforum=22
 
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