lever action rifle ammo

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sthomper

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i saw a webiste at marlin arms of a 1894c rifle that fires 357 mag and 38 spl.

is this true?? does the shorter case and overall length of a 38 cartridge still operate in a lever action rifle????

does a lever action mechanism take a rimmed case in some way that a carbine (magazine rifle) cant???

if so , how??
 
I think you are misusing some terms in your question. A magazine is any part of the gun designed to hold cartridges prior to their being cycled into the barrel (chamber) and fired. A carbine generally means any short barrelled rifle, altho purists will dispute that. THE marlin 1894C would certainly qualify as a carbine, and it has a tube magazine under the barrel. Yes, it will handle both .38 and .357 mag ammunition normally. Some individual 1894C's will jam occasionally with the shorter cartridges; the bullet shape can make a difference in some cases - as it can in many other guns. If by carbine you mean an M1 carbine, and by magazine you mean a removable magazine like it uses, then yes; the lever action does handle rimmed ammunition while the M1 does not. When rifles started using vertical stacked magazines back in the 1890's the rimless case was chosen because the cartridges stacked and fed better without the rim. The British never got the word, however and continued to use rimmed cartridges for another 60 years or so. The more modern lever action designs all handle rimless cartridges stacked vertically.
 
What we've found in the Marlins and a couple of the Browning 92 remakes is that 38 specials need to be loaded with roundnose bullets, longish at that, to function freely.

Had a guy come in to the shop the other day with a Marlin, locked up, lever half open. I took out the lever screw, dropped the lever out, pulled the bolt and found two (2) 38 special semiwadcutters jammed up in the receiver. Told him "only long, roundnose" after that.
On the other hand, my 1960 something 94 in 44 mag won't take the Keith Lyman 429421 crimped in the crimp groove. Want some fun...load up a magazine with them and then wiggle them out back through the loading gate. Have to crimp around the front of the front driving band to feed in that gun.

Each is a rule unto itself.
 
Jim Watson said:
HAHA Remo223
John Wayne sure as heck was not loading his rifle with .38 specials, either.
Click to expand...
John Wayne was using a Winchester Model 92 in .32-20 in many of his movies, if I recall correctly. As far as I know, he never shot anything but blanks out of it. :)
 
fine.

it's a straight walled rimmed revolver like cartridge. Unless I misunderstand the OP, the question was how is it possible a lever action rifle can shoot a rimmed cartridge like a 38/357mag. And my answer was (basically) that's what they were intended to shoot from the beginning...meaning rimmed revolver like cartridges.
 
You can shoot .38's through through your .357 levergun, but you have to make sure you pay special attention when cleaning after shooting alot of them though, the shorter .38 cases can leave a nasty fouling ring in the chamber.

Almost forgot to add
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php

Much info on Marlins over there ,and a truly great group of guys and gals over there.
 
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Agree with PapaG, the OAL is what counts. There are long nosed bullets available to bring .38 Specials up to .357 Magnum length for reliable operation in a lever action.
It doesn't have to be much, the SAAMI spec for Magnums is only .040" longer than Specials. The .135" greater case length of the Magnum does not carry over into loaded ammunition. Look at the cylinder of a S&W Model 27 and see why.
 
Detachable box magazines 'typically' are designed for RIMLESS cartridges, but can work with RIMMED cases, usually by exagerating the forward slope of the magazine to create forward space for each rim. Tube magazines can be adapted for rimless cases, but the actions that use them are typically designed around blackpowder or early smokeless powder cartridges which were usually RIMMED.

RIMLESS means that there is an extractor groove at the base of the case head that provides an extractor interface.

RIMMED (like the 38/357 family) means that there is a larger than head diameter flange that acts as the primary head space dimension and extractor interface.

In the UK, rimmed cases were and sometimes still are called FLANGED.
 
"i saw a webiste at marlin arms of a 1894c rifle that fires 357 mag and 38 spl."

is this true?? simple. is this true????


does the shorter case and overall length of a 38 cartridge still operate in a lever action rifle????

does a lever action mechanism take a rimmed case in some way that a carbine (magazine rifle) cant???

if so , how??


"I think you are misusing some terms in your question. A magazine is any part of the gun designed to hold cartridges prior to their being cycled into the barrel (chamber) ....."

i thought revolvers had cylinders??

i asked does a LEVER ACTION MECHANISM (did you not formulate lever action rifle from this?) in some way take a rimmed revolver/pistol cartridge in some way that a carbine (magazine rifle) CANT. i was distinguishing lever action from non ever action. did you not get that??
 
if so, how? what is it about lever action mechanism that takes rimmed cartridges???
 
"The more modern lever action designs all handle rimless cartridges stacked vertically."

what would be an example of a modern lever action design rifle??

stacked on top?? is the 1894c not a modern design??
 
The bullet shape of the lever action usually determines the magazine - 'pointy bullets' are stacked horizontally on top of one another, so that the point will not impact another rifle primer if they were stacked long ways in a tubular magazine. Like the model 1895 winchester or the BLR. Both have magazines - one is integral - the 1895, one is detachable - the BLR. Both shoot the same style bullets but lock up differently.

Tubular magazines are for 'round or flat nosed bullets. You can tell these lever actions by their tubular magazine suspended beneath their barrel. Since these most of these models were developed over a century ago - the model 1892 winchester was made for sale in 1892, the 1894 winchester in 1894 are some of the most copied designs availble today...they were based upon the 1886 iirc which fired larger rounds. You can even still find models of toggle link levers using tubular magazine like the 1873...yep you guessed it, made in 1873.

So even though the designs aren't modern, with today's metalurgy and the strength of the design allows shooting smokeless powder cartridges through them.

When using a lever action, the overall length of the cartridge can lead to problems. Some models are much more diverse in the rounds that they can fire. I have a 94/22 that can shoot 22 short, 22 long, and 22 long rifles without a problem. You can load the rounds interchangeably and shoot them. Those rounds vary in overall length quit a bit.

I used to have a 94 ae (angle eject) that shot 357/38 with no problem. I gave it to my dad because he took a fancy to it. I have an 1873 45 Long Colt...it works great with a long colt but don't throw in a schofield without some kind of smithwork...I tried, it locks it up.

Oh and lever actions are called rifles, carbines etc...almost whimsically by manufacturers. Rifles tend to be their longest offering and carbines their shortest with other nomenclatures used in between. Some authors will claim that a carbine is used mainly on/for horseback and others claim that it only shoots pistol calibers, some say the lever needs a barrel band to be called a carbine...there's really no hard and fast rules about it as far as I know.

Hmm...turning into a rambling post...am onleave from the mideast so my sleep is jacked up...but here goes.

OK, so what about the guy who has a tubular magazine that wants to shoot pointy bullets? Can you? Well the answer is a qualified yes. First, you need to make sure that your pointy bullet is the same length as the round nosed bullets if you plan to fire more than once. So that your lever won't jam. Next, you need to realize that you can only shoot two pointy bullets out of a tubular magazine - the first and last. Next you need to load the first pointy bullet into the chamber and make your weapon safe. Next you need to load your remaining bullets so that the last round fired is your second pointy bullet. Most people who do this just put one more pointy bullet in the tubular magazine and call it a day, so they now have a two shot rifles. But, theoretically, with a side gate you could put your pointy bullet in first (so it is the last round fired) and then load the rest with round nosed. Or if it's a top loader tube ala henry, you would drop your round nosed in first and put the last pointy bullet to be fired in last. Or...to be safest and easiest without thinking, you could use hornady lever bullets with the rubber bumpers on the tips and load the whole magazine...

Lastly about rimmed cartridges in horizontal stacked mags...it's done all the time. How big the rim is will probably determine how carefully one as to load the round. For old school, Moisons shoot rimmed rifle cartridges and 38 super 1911's shoot rimmed cartridges. For newer fad or fashion Coonan 1911's shot 357's and even the Laura Croft lusters know that the desert eagle has a 357 too.

So that's my two pesos on that. I think lever actions are awesome. IMHO every American should be required to own a lever action and SAA (their choice of calibers) and be required to qualify by plinking some cans on the 4th of July.

LW
 
is this true?? simple. is this true????
Click to expand...
Yes. The 357 is based on lengthening the case and strengthening the case head of the 38 special. The 44 magnum did the same thing to the 44 special. The 454 Casull is the same treatment to the 45 Colt.
does the shorter case and overall length of a 38 cartridge still operate in a lever action rifle????

does a lever action mechanism take a rimmed case in some way that a carbine (magazine rifle) cant???

if so , how??
Click to expand...
Yes, and yes. The how is the tube magazine that eliminates rims over rim jamming.
"The more modern lever action designs all handle rimless cartridges stacked vertically."

what would be an example of a modern lever action design rifle??

stacked on top?? is the 1894c not a modern design??
Click to expand...
BLR, Ruger Lever Action modern lever action designs.

Stack on top refers to single or staggered box magazine used in semi-auto rifles and pistol, rifles, carbines, and integral to most bolt action rifles.

The 1894 was introduced 107 years ago, in 1894, as a redesign of the Marlin 1889. It went out of production in the 1930, but came back in the 1960's. The most significant updates are in terms of materials and manufacturing processes, safety, and scope mounting.
if so, how? what is it about lever action mechanism that takes rimmed cartridges???
Click to expand...
It is not the action per say, but rather the entire system, including the tube magazine. Tube magazines were designed for rimfire and rimmed cartridges.

The lever action, pump shotgun, and autoloaders based of those designs use tube magazines.
 
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Sthomper,
People are attempting to help you.
You're using confusing terminology.

A lever-action can quite easily function with rimmed cartridges, whether straight-walled or bottlenecked.
Marlin, Winchester, Ruger, Rossi, Henry, Uberti and others have all made leverguns that shoot them.

Marlin has produced guns in .357/.38, .44 Special, .44 Mag, and .45 Colt for many years. The .45-70 is also a rimmed cartridge that's been used in leverguns for well over a hundred years.
How do the guns do it with a rimmed case? They just do, it's what they were designed to do.

A "modern" levergun is just a current levergun. The 1894C is a modern gun.

I'm aware of only two current leverguns that "stack" cartridges vertically, the Browning BLR with its detachable box mag & the Winchester Model 95 with its integral mag. May be more, but they don't come to mind. (The old Savage had a removable magazine, no longer in production.) In others they either sit horizontally in a line under & parallel to the barrel, or in the discontinued Ruger levergun they ride in a rotary magazine.

Stacking, to me, implies a magazine like the Browning, an AR-15 or 1911 pistol uses. Dunno what you mean by "stacked on top".

Does a lever-action take a rimmed cartridge in some way that a carbine can't?
What do you mean?
There are loads of lever-action carbines out there, many that fire the .357/.38, and the little .357/.38 Marlin is one of them.
If you're thinking a carbine is only an M1, or only a gun that takes a removable box magazine, you've confused yourself and me along with it.
Your apparent definition of a "carbine" as a "magazine rifle" is vague, contradictory & meaningless. A removable magazine is not a criterion in defining what's a carbine & what's not a carbine. As has been said above, a magazine is simply a device for storing & feeding ammunition, and the underbarrel tube is a magazine.

There are lever-action carbines, there are semi-auto carbines, there are bolt-action carbines.

There's no point in you getting indignant with people trying to answer your questions when you can't use the correct terminology.

Yes- the Marlin can fire both .357 and .38, as you've been told.
How it does it is simply a matter of it being designed to do it.
Denis
 
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That case head has little to do with anything. Even some older designs such as the Savage model 99 and Winchester model 1895 for example, do not require the use of a rimmed case. However, you also have the Marlin 336 which is chambered in 30-30 (rimmed) and .35 Remington (no rim). Confusing I know.
 
Well the Savage 99 and Winchester 1895 both used box magazines with the cases stacked vertically as well, instead of a tube.
 
The Savage 99 did not use a box magazine, or vertically stacked rounds, at least for the first 75 years or so it was made.

It used a rotary spool magazine somewhat similiar to a Mannlicher Schoenauer bolt-action, or a Ruger 10/22.

rc
 
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