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liberating or conquering Iraq?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by ksnecktieman, Oct 29, 2004.

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  1. ksnecktieman

    ksnecktieman Member

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    If we are liberating Iraq, why are we disarming the civilians?

    If, as some say, the Iraqi people want us there, why do we not allow them to possess, or provide them with arms. I understand we are fighting terrorists there. I understand that if someone shoots at our soldiers, he is an enemy. If our soldiers are attacked, we have air and artillery support to devastate the area the attacker is in. If we announce that we value our soldiers lives more than the Iraqi civilians that are in the wrong place at the wrong time, and our response is going to be "Scorched Earth" devastation when attacked. And we allow civilian ownership of military weapons, where will the "insurgents" "terrorists", "religious jihadists" and suicide bombers hide from their fellow countrymen? EVEN the most manly of our supporters can not be expected to stand against the evil ones without arms.

    If we can not arm the civil population and have them support us,,,,,, we are conquerors, not liberators. If we do not arm them, we can not ask them to support us.

    We are fighting a war against people that will behead captives on camera, and we are allowing the press to call us evil because we shame some prisoners we have captured?
     
  2. Rebar

    Rebar member

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    From what I understand, we are allowing Iraqi familys to keep one rifle for each adult male, for self protection.
     
  3. Michigander

    Michigander Member

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    And we are arming and training police and military as well. Correct me if I am mistaken.
     
  4. Ezekiel

    Ezekiel Member

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    Likely because our main thrust in being there is not -- and never has been -- to "liberate Iraq". (Completely personal opinion, and noted as such.) To my knowledge, the stated Republican party line has something to do with a reduction in the risk of global terrorism. [Bah! As if!] My fear is what occurs when either party (it matters little who) determines that, for our own safety, it is time to investigate citizens en masse in the United States.

    Oh wait...

    Nevermind. :fire:

    Still, your question stirs much thought within this carbon-based life form.
     
  5. FeebMaster

    FeebMaster Member

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    Oh yeah, I can taste the freedom.


    Next you'll be arguing that the second amendment doesn't recognize a human right but merely grants a privelege to those fortunate enough to be citizens of the Homeland.
     
  6. Rebar

    Rebar member

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    You sarcasm is misplaced. It's up to the Iraqi people, who will vote for a new government, that will make the new laws concerning firearms ownership.

    As is, the laws in Iraq are far better than here in Massachusetts, which still has the AWB in effect.
     
  7. Firethorn

    Firethorn Member

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    FeebMaster,

    Note that they're letting them keep a full-auto weapon for Home Defense. They're going after things like mortars, RPGs, and explosives.
     
  8. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

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    Now that's funny, in a grim sort of way.
     
  9. CannibalCrowley

    CannibalCrowley Member

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    Rebar
    But until then, our troops will be confiscating the rest of their weapons and enforcing a gun control policy that they never voted for in the first place. Face it, we're in another country an instituting measures of gun control which people would scream about if it was happening in our country.
     
  10. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    Disarm? Hell, I live in Texas and the Iraqis have better gunrights than I do.
     
  11. RW_Reagan

    RW_Reagan Member

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    liberate: to free from a dictator or other form of "repressive" (by our standards) government.

    conquer: to subjugate the people and rule either directly or indirectly by a puppet government for long term economic gain.

    I vote for the first. John Kerry would go for either depending on the prevailing poles.
     
  12. moa

    moa Member

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    The last I saw on the subject, the constitution the interim Iraqi government drew up (with help of an UN official) only allows ownership of a firearm with a license.

    We are going much further than that. We are allowing Iraqis to keep one firearm such as fully automatic AK47s at home for each adult male. I do think we have some restrictions about openly carrying the AKs and other firearms in public.

    The Coalition knows the Iraqi people need the means to defend themselves against militias, insurgents and bandits.
     
  13. Rebar

    Rebar member

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    You are incorrect sir. We are confiscating heavy weapons, mortars, RPGs, heavy machine guns, grenades, etc.

    They are allowed to keep rifles, even select fire rifles, and pistols, without a licence. We as Americans don't have the right to hold select fire weapons, or in most of the country any firearms without licences. They are.

    The only folks who would scream here if we instituted the same policy would be the Brady people and the other gun confiscation groups.
     
  14. CannibalCrowley

    CannibalCrowley Member

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    You are misinformed. Please read: Gun licenses a tough task in Iraq
    The part most damning to your argument.
     
  15. Rebar

    Rebar member

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    You proved my point:
    It's not coalition troops taking weapons from Iraqi civilians, it's the Iraqi government that's making people get licenses.

    Big difference.
     
  16. FeebMaster

    FeebMaster Member

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    I stand by my sarcasm. Laws that are passed in the future by a government in Iraq are irrelevant to what is being enforced today by the occupying army. Laws in Massachusetts are even less relevant to freedom in Iraq. Futhermore, the people of Iraq have the right to bear arms as much as any other human being does, any laws passed by a future Iraqi government can only infringe on that right just as regulations being enforced there now infringe on that right.



    Yeah, I can still taste the freedom.
     
  17. Rebar

    Rebar member

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    It's been shown that the liberating army is allowing people to keep their full-auto ak-47s and other small arms. I don't see why you're having a problem with that.
     
  18. FeebMaster

    FeebMaster Member

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    I have a problem with any infringement of rights.
     
  19. Rebar

    Rebar member

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    The subject of the topic is if coalition forces are disarming the Iraqi people. It's shown that they are not.

    If you think that confiscating heavy weapons like RPGs and grenades are an infringment, you're entitled to that opinion. However, I don't think that doing so makes them an "occupation force", unless you're willing to state that the United States and Europe are under occupation, since they don't allow civilians to own those weapon types either.
     
  20. CannibalCrowley

    CannibalCrowley Member

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    The Iraqi government is making people get licenses to replace the permits given by the US. Furthermore, their current government was not elected by the people, it was emplaced by the US. Also, coalition troops are being used to enforce the laws nad train Iraqis to do the same.

    Slow down Rebar, you're disagreeing with yourself.
    That doesn't quite mesh with what you stated earlier.
    If they were only allowing them to keep one rifle, then they must have taken the rest. Hence, they were disarming Iraqis.
    Apples and oranges. We're deprived of certain arms by our own government and the enforcement is by our own people as well.
     
  21. FeebMaster

    FeebMaster Member

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    Yes they are.

    Yes I am entitled to my opinion, just as you are entitled to your opinion that confiscating the weapons that are being confiscated isn't an infringement. Of course, while we're sitting here discussing whose opinion is correct, the rights of the Iraqi people to keep and bear arms are still being infringed.


    The governments of Europe and the US infringing on the rights of their citizens are irrelevant to the occupiers of Iraq being an occupation force. They are an occupation force because they are occupying the country. The confiscation of weapons has nothing to do with calling the occupiers an occupation force. Even if they weren't confiscating weapons, they'd still be an occupation force.
     
  22. Rebar

    Rebar member

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    I think we're working from different definitions. If you take all of someone's guns, I consider them disarmed. If someone has a gun, they are armed in my opinion. It doesn't matter if someone has 100 ak47s or just one, they are still armed. And I've read several accounts of coalition troops on patrol, who didn't take guns away from familys, and didn't ask for permits either.

    I also consider the coalation forces as liberators, not occupiers. We are setting up Iraq to be self governing, and are defending it from terrorists, most of whom are from Syria and Iran. Like when allied forces liberated France in WWII.
     
  23. Ian

    Ian Member

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    The point of being armed is to be able to resist both freelance individual criminals and to resist coercive governments or invaders. While a pistol or rifle is sufficient for the former, the latter requires exactly those "heavy" weapons that you say are being confiscated, Rebar. The simple fact that US forces need to confiscate those weapons should cast immense doubt on any claims that we're there to liberate the folks.
     
  24. FeebMaster

    FeebMaster Member

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    That's interesting. Would you support legislation in the US limiting citizens to one firearm? After all, that wouldn't be disarming anyone. It doesn't matter if someone has 100 guns or just one, they are still armed. How about legislation limiting citizens of the homeland to one single-shot .22 rifle? Citizens of the Homeland would still be armed.
     
  25. CannibalCrowley

    CannibalCrowley Member

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    Rebar
    Sorry, you can't change the definition of a word just to suit your argument. Disarm means to take a weapon or weapons from someone. If the UN came to your door, took your guns and said that you'd be able to keep a .22 rifle, would you say they disarmed you? After all, they didn't take all your guns.
     
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