Thumper
Member
Michigander, surely you're not that politically naive. He just made a giant step yesterday towards keeping it off his desk...and made it pretty obvious. And he didn't alienate the 60% of GUNOWNERS who support the AWB,
Libertarian Party v. RNC on RKBA
- Thread starter MacViolinist
- Start date
- Status
Michigander
Member
Yup, I must have missed it Thumper. Can you post a link to where President Bush says now that he will not sign it if it comes accross his desk?
Thumper
Member
Let me put it in a way where you don't have wiggle room there, Moby.
Why the release if he wants the AWB? This potential "rider" is pretty much the ban's last chance.
Why the release if he wants the AWB? This potential "rider" is pretty much the ban's last chance.
Michigander
Member
Thumper,
Link please? I'm asking nicely. I have not seen to what you are refering.
Link please? I'm asking nicely. I have not seen to what you are refering.
Daedalus
Member
That is funny, they never asked me to participate in this survey. Why is it that whenever I read about some VAST NATIONAL SURVEY I can never find the participants?
Thumper
Member
*laugh* Riiiight. Very different ideas of "reasonable restrictions".
I believe Al Gore would gleefully gut RKBA. Kerry too. What has Bush done for RKBA since he's been President?
The presidency? Not yet.
Smaller offices? By the LPs count, they control 603 elected public offices around the country. Small start, to be sure, but aren't you anti-libertarians always saying to start small?
fix
Member
Glad someone finally said it.
Docwithglock
Member
We should only need one law about Guns!
The current number of gun laws in the US is somewhere over 20,000!
Every single law which infringes on our RKBA is unconstitutional!
Every single politician who allowed a single vote for any gun law (good or bad) since the 2nd A, has done nothing more than to weaken our Nation.
Every politician who doesn't actively cry out in horror at the rate we are loosing our rights is also part of the problem. GWB can hint at this or that, they can play the political game of attrition, trying to please the majority, so as to get reelected. Or they can stop being cowards who are afraid that if they vote to abolish all gun control "victim dissarmament" laws", then they risk not getting reelected (ending up with NOTHING). COWARDS! Risking it all, throwing a vote alway, being pragmatic, standing up for what you believe, whatever you want to call it... when people start compromizing, and giving in to some Tyranny in hopes that the will be able to change it tommorow, it is indeed a sad time in America. A sad time because when the masses allow just one slight injustice (let alone spitting on the BOR), we are surely already on the slippery slope towards tyranny.
20,000+ gun laws in this country! The only legal one is the 2ndA. So who cares is we have 20,001 laws... we all will because the day will come when we will be back to one gun law. The one law will then be an abolition of all guns for the people! When do we put our feet down? Tommorow? When we think we can win? Every second we waste the opposition gets stronger. What good are we if we fight and loose everything now? We are still free in our hearts and minds. If we don't fight now we have already lost!
The current number of gun laws in the US is somewhere over 20,000!
Every single law which infringes on our RKBA is unconstitutional!
Every single politician who allowed a single vote for any gun law (good or bad) since the 2nd A, has done nothing more than to weaken our Nation.
Every politician who doesn't actively cry out in horror at the rate we are loosing our rights is also part of the problem. GWB can hint at this or that, they can play the political game of attrition, trying to please the majority, so as to get reelected. Or they can stop being cowards who are afraid that if they vote to abolish all gun control "victim dissarmament" laws", then they risk not getting reelected (ending up with NOTHING). COWARDS! Risking it all, throwing a vote alway, being pragmatic, standing up for what you believe, whatever you want to call it... when people start compromizing, and giving in to some Tyranny in hopes that the will be able to change it tommorow, it is indeed a sad time in America. A sad time because when the masses allow just one slight injustice (let alone spitting on the BOR), we are surely already on the slippery slope towards tyranny.
20,000+ gun laws in this country! The only legal one is the 2ndA. So who cares is we have 20,001 laws... we all will because the day will come when we will be back to one gun law. The one law will then be an abolition of all guns for the people! When do we put our feet down? Tommorow? When we think we can win? Every second we waste the opposition gets stronger. What good are we if we fight and loose everything now? We are still free in our hearts and minds. If we don't fight now we have already lost!
Michigander
Member
Oh that. That is what you call:
I would hardly call that going out on a limb.
bjengs
Member
Ugh, enough with the name calling.
While I don't agree with Michigander about lots of things, let's clear up two issues.
1) Michigander: please post a link to where Bush says he will sign it if it crosses his desk.
2) Fix & Thumper: please post a link to where Bush says he won't sign it if it crosses his desk.
Trying to avoid having legislation cross his desk is evading the issue, and is certainly not an example of leadership.
While I don't agree with Michigander about lots of things, let's clear up two issues.
1) Michigander: please post a link to where Bush says he will sign it if it crosses his desk.
2) Fix & Thumper: please post a link to where Bush says he won't sign it if it crosses his desk.
Trying to avoid having legislation cross his desk is evading the issue, and is certainly not an example of leadership.
fix
Member
I already gave up, remember. You guys win. Libertarians are superior. I'm just too dense to understand such an advanced political philosophy.
Chuck Jennings
Member
Absolutely. There has been a lack of courageous, principled leadership in the White house for a while!
"For the record, this statement refers to the Republican Party."
Thanks, Gordon. I was reading fast (too fast) and missed that point. I thought the paragraph was the comparison itself. So, my comments deleted as being in complete error.
Last edited:
bjengs
Member
fix said
All I am trying to do is sweep up some of the dried mud that was slung and give you each a golden opportunity to silence the other. Ian stepped up to the plate on Michigander's behalf. You seem to have quit - twice, now.
Thumper, I hope you see my request for the fair one it was. Or anybody, for that matter: I just want the citation of Bush's stated intent to not sign the bill if it crosses his desk. I am honestly under the impression that there is one, but fix is reacting like I'm laying down some sort of trap. That is not the case!
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! I saw you throw in the towel in the face of some other point, true. And don't go tarring my reputation with the L-word...
All I am trying to do is sweep up some of the dried mud that was slung and give you each a golden opportunity to silence the other. Ian stepped up to the plate on Michigander's behalf. You seem to have quit - twice, now.
Thumper, I hope you see my request for the fair one it was. Or anybody, for that matter: I just want the citation of Bush's stated intent to not sign the bill if it crosses his desk. I am honestly under the impression that there is one, but fix is reacting like I'm laying down some sort of trap. That is not the case!
Gordon Fink
Member
For the record, this statement refers to the Republican Party.
~G. Fink
fix
Member
Sorry for mis-labeling you, if that's the case.
Nah, I'm just tired of debating the issue. If it hits his desk and gets signed, I'm probably staying home. Otherwise, I'm going to ignore his words and look at his actions, just like any other politician. I break it down like this:
A) 33% of them say things I like, but do things I hate.
B) 33% of them say things I hate, but do things I like.
C) 33% of them say things I hate, AND do things I hate.
D) 1% of them get it right.
So far, Bush is spreading it around in all four groups. Considering my admittedly extreme views, that probably puts him somewhere close to the mainstream.
Nah, I'm just tired of debating the issue. If it hits his desk and gets signed, I'm probably staying home. Otherwise, I'm going to ignore his words and look at his actions, just like any other politician. I break it down like this:
A) 33% of them say things I like, but do things I hate.
B) 33% of them say things I hate, but do things I like.
C) 33% of them say things I hate, AND do things I hate.
D) 1% of them get it right.
So far, Bush is spreading it around in all four groups. Considering my admittedly extreme views, that probably puts him somewhere close to the mainstream.
Michigander
Member
I hope this isn't true. Don't you have local candidates, issues, bonds, proposals, etc. coming up? You do realize that a vote for president is the weakest, least powerful vote one has, don't you?
fix
Member
I don't mean that literally.
MacViolinist
Member
......until AFTER the election.
Someone earlier talked about changing the Republican party from within. It sounds like a great idea except that it never happens. Whenever it's time to vote out some RINO's, weeeeell, then there's no one else to vote for that can win. But they better get it right this time!!!!!
Here's an idea. Everyone go out and vote for anyone/thing you can think of that is not a turncoat, RINO, or Republikrat or whatever you wan to call them. Put up with the dems for 4 years, and just watch the DNC clean up their act. Send out the message that you want a Republican Party that stands for something other than sort-of-anti-dem-but-not-always. Send out the message that you would rather have people in office that are honest about their hatred of freedom, than people that pretend to care about rights until they get into office and then anything goes.
-drew
fallingblock
Member
But that's the problem, Macviolinist....
"Someone earlier talked about changing the Republican party from within. It sounds like a great idea except that it never happens."
************************************************************
It's the only option that will work....and it can be made to happen with a lot of effort.
Unlike elevating the LP to a realistic contender for Federal office.
That just is not going to happen.
************************************************************
"Whenever it's time to vote out some RINO's, weeeeell, then there's no one else to vote for that can win. But they better get it right this time!!!!!"
************************************************************
With enough pressure on the Repugs, we can change their mind on that.
A lot more easily and certainly than trying to elevate the LP to a realistic contender on the Federal level. We're not going to see that happen any time soon, if ever.
I'm not "anti-Libertarian", by the way. We're all on the same side when it comes to preserving/recovering RKBA.
It's only the strategy for doing so that is under discussion.
Let's not sling mud, please....there nothing so discouraging as allies bickering among themselves while the opposition advances.
"Someone earlier talked about changing the Republican party from within. It sounds like a great idea except that it never happens."
************************************************************
It's the only option that will work....and it can be made to happen with a lot of effort.
Unlike elevating the LP to a realistic contender for Federal office.
That just is not going to happen.
************************************************************
"Whenever it's time to vote out some RINO's, weeeeell, then there's no one else to vote for that can win. But they better get it right this time!!!!!"
************************************************************
With enough pressure on the Repugs, we can change their mind on that.
A lot more easily and certainly than trying to elevate the LP to a realistic contender on the Federal level. We're not going to see that happen any time soon, if ever.
I'm not "anti-Libertarian", by the way. We're all on the same side when it comes to preserving/recovering RKBA.
It's only the strategy for doing so that is under discussion.
Let's not sling mud, please....there nothing so discouraging as allies bickering among themselves while the opposition advances.
Thumper
Member
I'm starting to see why Libs are so irrelevant.
You guys REALLY can't read betwen the lines on the release? Seriously? Bull...you guys know exactly what it means.
Fine, I can't convince you then. Have fun with your point-whatever percent of the vote. You MIGHT be able to play the role of spoiler if you can convince enough folks that pro CCW and self protection and gun immunity Bush is anti gun. But I think folks are smarter than that.
You guys REALLY can't read betwen the lines on the release? Seriously? Bull...you guys know exactly what it means.
Fine, I can't convince you then. Have fun with your point-whatever percent of the vote. You MIGHT be able to play the role of spoiler if you can convince enough folks that pro CCW and self protection and gun immunity Bush is anti gun. But I think folks are smarter than that.
"They support background checks.…
They support Project Exile (i.e. giving prosecutors extra money and incentive to go after gun crimes).
Not exactly the paragons of the Second Amendment they are made out to be."
I don't see how this makes this less pro-2A. I don't mind background checks. The fewer psychos and crooks with guns the better for legit gun owners. I want real gun crimes on the books to be prosecuted.
They support Project Exile (i.e. giving prosecutors extra money and incentive to go after gun crimes).
Not exactly the paragons of the Second Amendment they are made out to be."
I don't see how this makes this less pro-2A. I don't mind background checks. The fewer psychos and crooks with guns the better for legit gun owners. I want real gun crimes on the books to be prosecuted.
- Status