Libertarianism in One Country: Why (Somebody Thinks) Libertarians Are Nuts

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roo_ster

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Original article (with many hyperlinks)

The author has two main points:
1. Libertarians are nuts to "...favor mass uncontrolled immigration from the third world..." as it is suicidal to libertarian aims.
2. Libertarians ought to concentrate on building libertarianism & libertarian ideals where the ground is most fertile (the USA) before inviting masses of folks less well-disposed toward libertarian ideals to dilute (the USA's) support in favor of those ideals.

[The "Liberaltarian" bit he writes of is an attempt by a Brink Lindsey to stump for a fusion of libertarinaism and contemporary liberalism sort of the way libertarianism and conservatism did back in the 1960s-1980s. Links in original article.]

Here is the text for those not inclined to mash the link:
John Derbyshire (emphasis his said:
December 11, 2006, 6:00 a.m.

Libertarianism in One Country
On the Brink and beyond.

By John Derbyshire

Brink Lindsey’s “Liberaltarian” piece in The New Republic is getting commented on all over. Here at NR/NRO, Ramesh has already taken a swing at it on The Corner, with a response from Lindsey posted here. Jonah is working up an article on it, I believe. I’m going to leave these heavyweights to take on Lindsey’s piece in the round. Here I’m just going to pass comment on one aspect of liberaltarianism.

Before reading through Brink’s piece, I did a find on “immigr,” and came up with the following sentences:

  • Just look at the causes that have been generating the real energy in the conservative movement of late: building walls to keep out immigrants, amending the Constitution to keep gays from marrying, and imposing sectarian beliefs on medical researchers and families struggling with end-of-life decisions.
  • Most obviously, many of the great libertarian breakthroughs of the [past half century] — the fall of Jim Crow, the end of censorship, the legalization of abortion, the liberalization of divorce laws, the increased protection of the rights of the accused, the reopening of immigration — were championed by the political left.
  • Both [liberals and libertarians] generally support a more open immigration policy.

Let me mention once, then leave aside, the sneaky little sleights of hand that we have now come to expect in anything written by those opposed to enforcement of immigration laws. The purpose of the wall in that first quote is not, as Lindsey claims, to keep out immigrants, but to keep out illegal immigrants. And if, by “the reopening of immigration” in that second sentence, Lindsey means the 1965 Immigration Act, well, no mention of that legislation should be allowed to pass without a note on the staggering differences between the promises made by the act’s sponsors, and its actual consequences. Those differences are thoroughly described in any honest book that deals with the topic, e.g. Pat Buchanan’s recent bestseller, Chapter 12.

Lindsey is surely right that both liberals and libertarians “generally support a more open immigration policy.” The difference is that liberals are, from their standpoint, correct to do so, while libertarians are, from their standpoint, nuts to do so. Let me explain.

* * * * *

A liberal, in the current sense of the term, is a person who favors a massive welfare state, expansive and intrusive government, high taxation, preferential allocation of social goods to designated “victim” groups, and deference to international bureaucracies in matters of foreign policy.

It is not difficult to see why such a person would favor lax policies towards both legal and illegal immigration. Immigration, legal or otherwise, concerns the crossing of borders, and a liberal regards borders, along with all other manifestations of the nation-state, with distaste. “International” trumps “national” in every context. The preferences a citizen might have for his own countrymen over foreigners, for his own language over other tongues, for his own traditions and folkways over imported ones, are all, in the minds of a modern liberal, manifestations of ugly, primitive, and outdated notions — nativism, xenophobia, racism. The liberal proudly declares himself a citizen of the world, and looks with scorn and contempt on those narrow souls who limit their citizenly affections to just one nation.

And in the realities of the world today, immigrants to the United States are mostly people of color, who can be recruited into those cohorts of designated “victims” that form such a key legion in the modern liberal alliance. This is especially the case with illegal immigrants, who come overwhelmingly from the Amerindian- and mestizo-peasant underclasses of Mexico and Central America. Any expression of unhappiness with mass illegal immigration can therefore easily be construed as racism, the most shameful of all sins in the liberal lexicon — a form of mental illness, according to some.

Further, modern liberals have come to an understanding with capitalism. The modern liberal is not a socialist. He understands perfectly well that common ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange is a total no-hoper. The lavish government programs he favors need to be financed, and socialism is not capable of financing them — the 20th century proved that a hundred times over. Only a thriving capitalism can fund all the programs, all the departments, all the bureaucrats that modern liberalism wants.

How, then, can capitalism thrive in such a way as to necessitate a huge welfare establishment? Simple: Privatize profits, socialize costs.

Private profit is of course the essence of capitalism; but how to socialize costs? The cost of your labor force is their remuneration, which ought to be sufficient to allow them to pay for their housing, health care, children’s education, and so on. To the degree that your workers’ remuneration is not sufficient for those things, you are throwing your workers on the mercy of the welfare state — socializing your costs. Thus, in an odd historical reversal, liberals are keen on a capitalism that pays the lowest possible wages. To its everlasting shame, the labor movement, dominated nowadays by public-sector and welfare-state unions, is similarly inclined. The political Left is now the party of low wages kept down by endless mass immigration. Samuel Gompers (“America must not be overwhelmed...”) must be turning in his grave.

* * * * *

The affection of liberals for mass immigration, both legal and illegal, is thus very easy to understand. Why, though, do libertarians favor it? And why do I think they are nuts to do so?

So far as the first of those questions is concerned, I confess myself baffled. I think that what is going on here is just a sort of ideological overshoot. Suspicion of state power is of course at the center of classical libertarianism. If the state is making and enforcing decisions about who may settle in territories under the state’s jurisdiction, that is certainly a manifestation of state power, and therefore comes under libertarian suspicion. Just why libertarians consider it an obnoxious manifestation — well, that’s where my bafflement begins. (That some exercises of state power are necessary and un-obnoxious is conceded by nearly all libertarians.)

Perhaps libertarians simply haven’t thought about immigration. Until five years or so ago, very few Americans had. Charles Murray’s 1997 book What It Means to Be a Libertarian mentions immigration just once — to apologize for not having mentioned it! More recent libertarian productions show some dawning awareness. Bruce Bartlett’s book Impostor gives off a strong flavor of libertarianism, yet the author confesses himself “conflicted” on the immigration issue.

The free market economist in me wants to believe that we should have free flows of labor as well as free flows of capital, goods, and services. And I do believe that, historically, immigrants have been an enormously positive addition to the United States... I believe that our willingness to accept the best and brightest of other nations has incalculably added to America’s well-being...

But at the same time, I am disturbed by the way some illegal immigrants have abused our hospitality and the way some politicians have exploited them. It is insane that some communities have forbidden local police from enforcing the federal immigration laws, even when they could be used legitimately to expel criminals from our midst. I cannot comprehend why some states would allow illegal immigrants to attend state universities and pay in-state tuition, when the native-born from other states must pay more. I am concerned about the ease with which people can become citizens, simply by being born on our soil, when they have no meaningful connection to this country otherwise. And I am bothered by the ability of terrorists to exploit the holes in our immigration system.​

For a long-time fellow-traveler of the Wall Street Journal “there shall be open borders” crowd, this is startling stuff.

As to why I think libertarians are nuts to favor mass uncontrolled immigration from the third world: I think they are nuts because their enthusiasm on this matter is suicidal to their cause. Their ideological passion is blinding them to a rather obvious fact: that libertarianism is a peculiarly American doctrine, with very little appeal to the huddled masses of the third world. If libertarianism implies mass third-world immigration, then it is self-destroying. Libertarianism is simply not attractive either to illiterate peasants from mercantilist Latin American states, or to East Asians with traditions of imperial-bureaucratic paternalism, or to the products of Middle Eastern Muslim theocracies.

There are a number of responses a libertarian might make to that. Not included in those responses, I think, given the current state of our national affairs, is the argument that Providence has inscribed a yearning for liberty on every human heart.

A libertarian might, though, say that while libertarianism could indeed be a hard sell to immigrants from very illiberal political traditions, it will appeal to their Americanized children, to the second generation. Possibly so. Even setting aside the great strengthening of the welfare state caused by the preferences of that first generation, though, to sell libertarianism to the second generation would need a tremendous missionary effort. According to Brink Lindsey, only 13 percent of Americans currently lean libertarian. If decades of libertarian proselytizing have only achieved that much success with a population rooted in the traditions of Pericles and Magna Carta, of the Renaissance, Reformation, and Enlightenment, of Washington, Jefferson, and Madison, how well should libertarians expect to do with the political descendants of emperors and caliphs, of Toussaint L’Ouverture and Mao Tse-tung?

* * * * *

The people who made Russia’s Communist revolution in 1917 believed that they were merely striking a spark that would ignite a worldwide fire. They regarded Russia as a deeply unpromising place in which to “build socialism,” her tiny urban proletariat and multitudinous medieval peasantry poor material from which to fashion New Soviet Man. Their hope was that the modern industrial nations of the world would take inspiration from them — that the proletarians of those nations would rise up against their capitalist masters and inaugurate a new age of world history, coming to the aid of the Russian pioneers.

When it was plain that none of this was going to happen, the party ideologues got to work revising the revolutionary dogmas. One of them — it was actually Joseph Stalin — came up with a new slogan: “Socialism in One Country!”

I think that libertarians should take a leaf from Stalin’s book. They should acknowledge that the USA is, of all nations, the one whose political traditions offer the most hospitable soil for libertarianism. Foreigners, including foreigners possessed of the urge to come and settle in modern, welfare-state America, are much less well-disposed towards libertarianism.

If less than one in seven American voters is inclined to libertarianism, then there is much missionary work to be done among present-day American citizens. To think that this missionary effort will be made any easier by a steady stream of arrivals from foreign parts, most of which have never known rational, consensual government, is highly unrealistic, to the point of delusion.

That is why I say that libertarians who favor mass immigration are nuts. If there is any hope at all for libertarianism, it rests in the libertarianism of my title: libertarianism in one country.


There is no contradiction between maximum liberty within a nation and maximum vigilance on the nation’s borders. Not only is there no contradiction between the two things, in fact, it may be that the second a precondition for the first.


National Review Online - http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YTNiMDIxNTk3NGQ0NTUyYmExMWE0NGE2NTk1Mzc1Yzk=
 
I don't think they are nuts, I think they are trying to gain a larger slice of the vote. If I was living in the southwest and wanted my family here with having to illeagily cross the border I'd vote for them.

Also I don't believe that most immigrants come here for the welfare. I think they come here for the work.
 
I don't figure it matters as much as people try to say, whether immigrants come for welfare or for work.

Either way, they're coming here for the opportunity to get some money. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing right about it, either.

Anyone who comes here for liberty gets priority, in my book. Someone who comes for freedom sure won't mind working. Someone who comes here just for money may or may not care about liberty, especially if they think that they can get more money if they give up liberty they don't value (usually someone else's liberty).
 
I used to call myself a big "L" libertarian. I went to a couple of conferences, and many of my overall beliefs are still those of the Libertarian Party. But I realized something. Much of the rank and file Libertarian Party believes. Illegal immigration is a threat to the country for many reasons, including economic ones.

I've studied a variety of things that the Libertarian Party believes concerning free market economics, and I've realized that the only way those things work is if corporations have no more rights than any breathing person (something that isn't a reality now, and even if we made it a reality in the US, it wouldn't be elsewhere and we would be screwed financially), and every country on the planet agreed to exist without tariffs or duties, or income tax. That is most definetely not happening. Otherwise our free market economy would be crushed by foreign competition using government force.

As for the whole immigration thing, what would have ever possessed a party obsessed with free market economics and generally socially liberal ideas to invite people who want socially conservative and fiscally liberal ideas to rule goes way over my head.

Plus, at the end of the day, great advances (economically, in the business world) generally are accomplished with greater brain power, better machines, and a stable (in terms of demographics) nation, as opossed to a nation that depends on a glut of cheap labour. Not only that, but a society with a large # of discontent, angry labourers who get slave wages generally is all for class warfare, whereas a society with a large middle class, and a small # of wealthy and poor people generally wants only to keep that status quo, which is the healthiest and richest "soil" for libertarian ideas.

Not to fret, not all libertarians agree with the stupidity of the national party. Look here:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/cox2.html
 
As for the whole immigration thing, what would have ever possessed a party obsessed with free market economics and generally socially liberal ideas to invite people who want socially conservative and fiscally liberal ideas to rule goes way over my head.

Because that's what freedom is all about. If you think the government should act in a way that shapes people's political opinions (whether through propaganda or restricting entrance to those likely to disagree), then you're a statist.

Freedom asks a lot of people. It means you have to put up with people you don't like or with whom you disagree. That's why most folks are anti-freedom on at least one issue. The free movement of people across borders is a big one.
 
I think the immigration issue (illegal & otherwise) is one issue that shows the fundamentally utopian nature of orthodox libertarianism.
 
Freedom asks a lot of people. It means you have to put up with people you don't like or with whom you disagree

Unfortunately Libertarian dogma breaks down when people can vote themselves a govt handout or regulation at my expense.

Bringing in scores of people who are most likely to be in need of govt doles and who come from a kleptocracy where "justice" is paying off the right govt official will not improve the general degree of freedom the average American will have. We are a nation founded on certain ideals and there is absolutely nothing wrong with the govt reinforcing those values, ideally it would do so by eliminating our doles, in the event that it doesn't I will be satisfied with not importing even more dependants.

The free movement of people across borders is a big one

Here's a hypothetical for you, suppose everyone in the 3rd world wanted to move here ASAP, and Ted Turner and George Soros would finance the travel costs, and you knew that they were all going to vote for govt handouts and civilian disarmament, would you support it?

It is one thing to be idealistic, it is quite another to ignore reality by sticking one's head in the sand, especially if doing so destroys one's livelihood.
 
Sorry I didn't make something clear before, but I'm not a libertarian. I was just trying to show how having libertarian beliefs necessitates an open borders view.

That said, I do believe in open borders.

So, if Soros and Turner moved the entirety of the 3rd world population here? I'd move to the now unpopulated 3rd world since the U.S. couldn't possibly handle all those billions of people and there would be plenty of perfectly good land out there not being ruled by crappy politicians. Imagine the rifle ranges I could put in!

Ask a silly question, get a silly answer. If you've got something a bit more realistic, I'll be happy to give you a more realistic answer.
 
Ask a silly question, get a silly answer. If you've got something a bit more realistic, I'll be happy to give you a more realistic answer

I dont think it was a silly question, but thank you for confirming and admitting that bringing in scores of 3rd worlders who arent interested in freedom would destroy the US. The amazing thing is that you dont need the entire 3rd world to wreck the US, all you need is enough people to vote for more govt in the right places and our goose is cooked.

Open Borders, especially at this point, will decrease overall freedom in the US, not enhance it.
 
Liberty takes a special kind of person with a special kind of belief system. And that marinates in certain cultural systems with certain cultural motifs better than others. If one were to tell me that the culture of Saudi Arabia and the culture of say... Australia's Outback create even results it would be an example of stupidity.

The culture of freedom America developed was a result of Scots-Irish frontiersmanship and German industriasnous, and the entrepeneurship of British merchants. The most dependant portions of American society were the wealthy slave owning Southerners who's dependence on slave labour and low tariffs eventually led to a war.

For the future of the country we shold allow in those that carry on the spirit of those original folks. And try to keep out those who do not.
 
Unfortunately Libertarian dogma breaks down when people can vote themselves a govt handout or regulation at my expense.

I wouldn't say that Libertarian dogma "breaks down" at that point, since Libertarian dogma is specifically antithetical to that very principle.

And still, even though I do happen to be a libertarian (or an anarchist, depending on which of my friends you query) I also recognize that "order of operations" is vital here. Once we've reformed the government to the point where the option of voting for handouts or oppressive regulation isn't available (yes, yes, miracle number one) feel free to import as many third worlders as you like. Because it won't matter. But getting back to that stage of the American political tradition we had when we were first a country*, and people didn't think that voting themselves a chunk of their neighbor's wallet was a valid option, is an important first step.

--------

*That's the theory anyway. People in power in our government have been abusing that power since before the ink was dry on the Constitution. But it's the principle I'm aiming for anyway. Might as well shoot for the stars, right? :)
 
I've never heard/seen a cogent argument that showed libertarianism necessitates an open border policy.
 
A liberal, in the current sense of the term, is a person who favors a massive welfare state, expansive and intrusive government, high taxation, preferential allocation of social goods to designated “victim” groups, and deference to international bureaucracies in matters of foreign policy.

I hear they drink the blood of Christian infants, too!

(nb: I ain't a liberal, I'm just amused by their bogeymen status in some circles.)
 
No more than conservatives favor a complete disregard for the moral applications of international law, a socially repressive government catering solely to monied special interests, taxation laid upon the lower and middle-classes and the allocation of social capital (and social goods) to the reigning ethnic and economic aristocracy.
 
Each of those is merely the antithesis of the supplied claim. If you think they're much more reactionary than is necessary, perhaps you understand why some might find the characterization of lib'ruls absurd and (intellectually) insulting.
 
but thank you for confirming and admitting that bringing in scores of 3rd worlders who arent interested in freedom would destroy the US.

I did no such thing. I simply said that the U.S. couldn't handle several billion people. It's not a freedom problem; it's a population density problem. Of course, no one expects such a situation so I'm not worried.

I've never heard/seen a cogent argument that showed libertarianism necessitates an open border policy.

Here goes: at it's core, libertarianism says that people should be allowed to live as they please, as long as they don't harm others. Domestically, government should be restricted to passing, enforcing, and interpreting laws that fall within these restrictions. Internationally, government should act in ways that prevent and repel military invasion. Immigration violates neither of these government mandates and so the government has no role in preventing immigration. People should be allowed to immigrate (and emigrate) as they please, since doing so does not infringe on others' rights.

Expected objections:

1) If enough anti-freedom immigrants get into the country, they could change the laws for the worse.

If they did, that would violate government's proscribed role. A libertarian constitution (unlike the U.S. constitution) would be written in a way that emphasizes liberty and deemphasizes democracy.

2) But these immigrants do constitute an invasion.

No they don't. They are not taking up arms against the government in an attempt to control certain geographic areas. If they did, the government would be justified in acting against them, since the government has a legitimate monopoly on the use of force.

3) Libertarianism is idealistic, not realistic.

That may be true. As I said before, I'm not a libertarian (used to be). I'm just showing why I think libertarians need to support open borders in order to maintain a political internal logic.
 
Actually, both liberals and conservatives were well described, atleast a portion of their general membership. Liberals like to grab the most right wing, and just plain mean Conservative and say "see"! And the Conservatives do the same with their own boogeymen.

Suffice it to say, liberals in general favor higher taxes, more socially liberal laws concerning abortion and freedom of speech, and a government being intrusive with the goal of "social justice" and they enjoy applying the opinions of outsiders to international affairs even when it probably will hurt Americans.

Conservatives generally wish for lower taxes, a government that interferes onyl in matters of public morality and abortion issues, and which generally stays out of other things. And they also won't listen to outsiders even when doing so may hurt Americans.

That being said, that is a massive generalization. And for what my .02 centavos are worth, neither one of those generalizations is a glaring advertisement in my eyes. I want a party to leave me alone. Don't tax me, don't tax other Americans if you can help it, stay away from matters of social justice whether that means taking from the rich and giving to the poor, or going psycho on people for buying sex toys or wanting to teach kids about safe sex. I want the US to go back to following the George Washington advice. Fair Trade with all, entangling alliances with none.

That, as I said is my dos centavos.
 
liberals in general favor higher taxes, more socially liberal laws concerning abortion and freedom of speech, and a government being intrusive with the goal of "social justice" and they enjoy applying the opinions of outsiders to international affairs even when it probably will hurt Americans.

Conservatives generally wish for lower taxes, a government that interferes onyl in matters of public morality and abortion issues, and which generally stays out of other things. And they also won't listen to outsiders even when doing so may hurt Americans.
That's a much more accurate description.
 
Why do I think libertarians are nuts? Probably because of all the specimens I encountered on campus during my college years.

"So you believe in freedom?"

"Yes, I want the MAXIMUM POSSIBLE freedom for everyone!"

"Great. If I'm the sole employer in an isolated community, is it okay for me to pay my workers only in company scrip? I wouldn't pay them enough to feed themselves but I would offer loans to make up for the difference, thereby causing them to go deeper and deeper into debt that they would pass on to their children, making it essentially possible for their families to leave the area. Is that okay by you?"

"Of course! The free market will always provide the greatest good for the people!"

"What if I want to buy some land you own but you're not selling. Is it okay for me to send legbreakers to 'persuade' you?"

"Of course not! That's using FORCE! And FORCE is the most evil thing in the world! A free market bereft of FORCE will give rise to utopia!"

"Ok, what if I wanted to buy a centimeter-wide strip of land extending from the southern border of the U.S. to the northern border and charge $1000 for anyone to cross or fly over it?"

"That would be hunky-dory!"

"What if I forbade anyone from crossing it no matter how much they paid me?"

"That would be fine too."

"Let's say that I really want your land, so I buy all the property around your house and forbid you to cross it. By doing this, I can legally kill you through starvation. Your choices are to give me the deed to your land or die. Is that okay in Libertarian Happy Land?"

"Uh.....

Uh...........

Uh....................."

(ears begin to smoke)

A liberal, in the current sense of the term, is a person who favors a massive welfare state,expansive and intrusive government, high taxation, preferential allocation of social goods to designated “victim” groups, and deference to international bureaucracies in matters of foreign policy.

A massive welfare state? And the government has given away how many billions of dollars of corporate subsidies that failed to create a single job? Expansive and intrusive government... who's been pushing the hardest for domestic spying and "dynamic entries" in service of the drug war? High taxation? Only for the upper classes; middle and especially lower-class people had it better before Bush.

I'm a liberal, and I and most of the liberals I converse with don't believe in any of the outrageous things Rush Limbaugh describes. Most are vehemently opposed to government spying and surveillance, nanny-statism and other intrusions into individuals' lives. A majority support the RKBA; anyone who knows the true scale of government criminality and corruption under the Republicans would be foolish to want a nation where only Bush's minions are armed. As far as economics go, libertarians are living in a dream world. The "FORCE" that they dread is an inescapable part of human affairs. Private interests will gleefully resort to force to make an extra buck, and the only thing that can counteract this is a government that works for the public benefit. I guess some people wax nostalgic for the days when canned meat contained sizable amounts of rotting flesh, fecal matter and bits of luckless workers who fell into the machinery, but I don't. If you have any questions, feel free to ask 'em.
 
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