Library internet filters and RKBA sites

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asdaf

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With the new Supreme Court decision upholding the Childrens Internet Protection Act most libraries in the country will be installing internet filters. Although CIPA mandates filtering only for sex related sites, all of the filters that I was able to check in a brief surfing session this morning also have a "violence" or similarly named category. Activating this category will block firearms related sites such as this one. I'm going to keep an eye on my local library to make sure that legitimate, first amendment protected, political speech isn't censored by mistake.

I trust librarians to oppose censorship in general. However, when they are forced to censor anyway I fear that a few might be tempted to block those evil guns as well as the smut- after all it's for the children.

Hopefully I'm being alarmist, but I'm going to keep my eyes open just in case.
 
The librarians I know dispise internet filtering. I can think they would be more than happy to let more sites through.

-Pytron
 
I really could care less what librarians think. As long as my tax dollars are being used to support my local public library, I don't want some middle-aged perv watching porn mpegs next to a group of kids reading the Hardy Boys.

Now, if you find a librarian blocking political discussion or gun-related sites, that is a legitimate complaint and should be brought to the attention of the administrator. But I don't think there is any basis for drawing a comparison between porn and guns in this case.
 
The cure for the porn dilemma is simple. In addition to the site extensions of .com, .org, .net, .gov, .edu, etc, simply add one called .xxx. This would eliminate the overlap of the filter programs which disallow going to sites on breast cancer, testicular cancer, etc.

Of course, laymen don't think like politicians so this idea is DOA, FOB, Washington, DC.
 
Apparently there was talk of .adu for adult sites, but there was some kind of politics going on in the community that comes up with the extensions and nothing came of it, which is a pity.

Simple solution to libraries having to put on filters. Disallow anyone under the age of 18 in the building unless they have either mummy or daddy in tow. It is the parents responsibility to babysit their kids, not the library's.
 
I don't think taxpayers should be paying for public libraries. Far too may ideological, religious, civil, legal and moral fights are breaking out.

You wanna read a book? Either purchase a membership in a private library OR BUY THE BOOK YOURSELF AND PUT IT IN YOUR PERSONAL LIBRARY.
 
Libraries are one of the great institutions of America and are one of the very best ways that young people can spend their time. They are one of the few good uses of tax dollarts since they both help to stimulate interest in learning and keep kids from getting into trouble. Many of the children that preuse libraries don't have those resources available to them in their homes, or during summers.

I don't think taxpayers should be paying for public libraries. Far too may ideological, religious, civil, legal and moral fights are breaking out.
These fights will occur with every institution, public or private. Running away from the problem is not a solution at all.

Disallow anyone under the age of 18 in the building unless they have either mummy or daddy in tow. It is the parents responsibility to babysit their kids, not the library's.
So you would prohibit the very demographic group at whom the library is primarily intended and whom benefits the most from its resources because someone wants to download porn.

How about we simply let a community set standards for themselves on what they will or will not allow?
 
Mandating the use of .adu and .xxx extensions for "porn" or "adult oriented material" is impractical for a number of reasons, not the least of which is making the determination of what must be hosted under those domains. Yeah, I'm sure you all know it when you see it, but that's just a little too arbitrary to work. Personally, I don't support gov't definition of what someone can put on their domain. If you buy a domain name and server space, you should be able to put children's stories or hardcore porn as you see fit. If I don't want to look at your content, I won't.

The simple solution is for parents to take better responsibility for their children, not to pass more laws.
These fights will occur with every institution, public or private. Running away from the problem is not a solution at all.
Right, but I don't care if your private institution creates arbitrary designations for what is appropriate to look at. I do start to care when precident is set regarding government sanctioned and enforced censorship.

(edit ... I meant private institution, not public. is difference)
 
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Right, but I don't care if your public institution creates arbitrary designations for what is appropriate to look at. I do start to care when precident is set regarding government sanctioned and enforced censorship.
Well, I agree that the feds should probably not be making these decisions, but ultimately, it will be the govt. at some level, either state or local, and at these levels, especially local, they will reflect community standards, which is exactly the way it should be.
 
Well, I agree that the feds should probably not be making these decisions, but ultimately, it will be the govt. at some level, either state or local, and at these levels, especially local, they will reflect community standards, which is exactly the way it should be.
Just fine and dandy until "community standards" turn against shooting and carrying firearms and such. If you only start fighting when they attack the civil rights that are important to you then you've already lost.

I propose that if parents kept an eye on their kids, there would be no problem with unfiltered access on library computers. Moreover, I propose that there are plenty of non-internet materials that violate "community standards" for children that can be found in most libraries. If you don't feel comfortable giving kids access to shelves of books with copies of the Kama Sutra, and unfiltered internet access, perhaps you shouldn't leave them unsupervised at the library. Gov't is a poor substitute for mommie and daddy.

Just my opinion.
 
If you only start fighting when they attack the civil rights that are important to you then you've already lost.
There is no "civil right" to view porn in a public venue. This is the same argument I hear from the antis. The difference is that guns are Constitutionally protected.

If you don't feel comfortable giving kids access to shelves of books with copies of the Kama Sutra, and unfiltered internet access, perhaps you shouldn't leave them unsupervised at the library. Gov't is a poor substitute for mommie and daddy.
1) I doubt my local library has the Kama Sutra and if does, it should be pulled; 2) children need to know about books like that in order to go exploring for them, most kids don't, but everyone knows about the Internet; 3) an adult can peruse the Kama Sutra in a cubbyhole in the library and no one is the wiser, the Internet is there for all to see.

The problem with your argument is that it points out the hypocrisy of the libertarian philosophy - "Whatever standards I have should be perfectly legal and fine, but if a community wants to set some standards for themselves, that's unacceptable", or "Good for me, but not for thee."
 
If all gun related sites had were relegated to .gun they would be easier to find.

But I really don't think this is the way to go because then every single facet of the internet would have their own extension and information would be impossible to find.
 
There is no "civil right" to view porn in a public venue. This is the same argument I hear from the antis.
I agree. "There is no 'civil right' to view porn in a public venue" is the same argument as one might hear from the antis, who might say "There is no 'civil right' to carry a handgun in a public venue".

Very good point.
The difference is that guns are Constitutionally protected.
I agree that guns are Constitutionally protected.
I doubt my local library has the Kama Sutra and if does, it should be pulled;
Hrm ... I see. Any other religous or pseudo-religious works that might be considered pornographic that need to be pulled? Song of Solomon, anyone?
Art?

Again, we're getting down to the "I know it when I see it" bit that doesn't work when you're censoring stuff on a governmental scale.
2) children need to know about books like that in order to go exploring for them, most kids don't, but everyone knows about the Internet;
Pesky computerized library catalog! Nowadays, even if Little Johnny doesn't understand Dewey's delightful decimal system, he can still type "sex" into a (non-internet enabled) computer terminal and see exactly where to find books on the subject.
3) an adult can peruse the Kama Sutra in a cubbyhole in the library and no one is the wiser, the Internet is there for all to see.
So the obvious solution is "there oughta be a law!"? *shrug* We think differently.

How about to get access to a private computer terminal (say, one in a cubbyhole) you have to be 18+, otherwise you use an open terminal and sign an agreement to avoid such sites?

There, now that wasn't so hard, was it?
The problem with your argument is that it points out the hypocrisy of the libertarian philosophy - "Whatever standards I have should be perfectly legal and fine, but if a community wants to set some standards for themselves, that's unacceptable",
What now?
We're not talking about a community setting standards for themselves - or there would be no debate. We're talking about a legislative effort to set standards for and to control others. If you can't control yourself on the internet, then buy a filter for your home computer and avoid terminals without one. Make sense?
or "Good for me, but not for thee."
This doesn't even relate to what you were attempting to paraphrase.
Your "hypocritical libertarian" bit would be better paraphrased as "Good for me. Go do as ye would do. Nunnamybizness."

As I said before, if you want filters on a private library's computer, or your personal systems at home ... enjoy! If you want to pull the Kama Sutra, or Song of Solomon, or pictures of Michelangelo's David from a private collection ... that's the business of the owner.

Waitone had a very good point when he said:
I don't think taxpayers should be paying for public libraries. Far too may ideological, religious, civil, legal and moral fights are breaking out.
You don't want to give money to a library that contains anything you find objectionable, Joe Patriot don't want to give money to a library that doesn't carry a copy of the Constitution, Alamander Marx doesn't want to give money to a library that contains anything but the works of Lenin.
Maybe we should look into private libraries than?

jsalcedo
If all gun related sites had were relegated to .gun they would be easier to find.

But I really don't think this is the way to go because then every single facet of the internet would have their own extension and information would be impossible to find.
And where would you find information on shooting in the nude? So very confusing.
 
So people can't do porn research at a library because there are bums who search for porn all day and the SCOTUS sez "porn bad?" That's ridiculous. As has been pointed out, lots of libraries carry porn periodicals (to be kind). What's next? Shall we pull Gray's Anatomy from the shelves? Encyclopedias have entries for "sex" you know. Maybe we should burn all the books. Lots and lots of fiction have between mild and graphic descriptions of sex. Yeah, that's it. Let's burn the books. And hey, we can start with Unintended Consequences. Imagine a 12-year-old reading about the incident with ... The horror! Some of these books, and magazines with similar material or worse, are sold in grocery and drug stores. Where is the outcry over those destroyers of children?

Idiotic SCOTUS justices shouldn't be upholding these kinds of rules for anyone. Considering some of them don't know a web filter from a coffee filter, I find it hard to take their decision seriously.

web-filtering rule #1: you can't filter images except based on filename or in some cases meta-information in the images themselves, both of which can be made to look innocuous.
corollary: the only way you can filter porn is through words near the images (see 2 paragraphs up) or by url (whitehouse.com anyone?).

If I was a librarian I'd be sure to hang out near the web proxy that was set up to "save the children," and you can bet that I'd quickly develop a nervous tick that would cause me to kick the power cord every few minutes. You can also bet that I'd kick bums off the computers at the first sign that they intended to surf for porn. Filtering is simply not the solution to the problem except long-term, assuming someone can build a reliable image filtering mechanism.

If anyone finds this site is filtered at least for the near future, pm me and I'll do anything I can reasonably do to help get around the filter.
 
__________________________________________________________
And where would you find information on shooting in the nude? So very confusing.
_________________________________________________________

Hot brass! Hot Brass! Ow! Ow! Thats going to leave a mark.
 
web-filtering rule #1: you can't filter images except based on filename or in some cases meta-information in the images themselves, both of which can be made to look innocuous.
That's not entirely true. I've seen some interesting algorithms that attempt to determine the percentage of fleshtones in an image. Granted, it lets some by and filters content that should be acceptable (depending on severity of the settings, can go more or less either way), but the technology is out there.
Hot brass! Hot Brass! Ow! Ow! Thats going to leave a mark.
See? This is important information that we have to get out there. Don't want to confuse the nice people by making them have to search all of .gun and .nud trying to find where it is.
 
Well said, cordex. I suppose some people think the 1st amendment is the Official Amendment of the "Lefties," and somehow the 2nd amendment is the Official Amendment of the "Righties."
 
While not completely related to public libraries, I have a little experience with this kind of situation.

I work at a University Library and we occasionally get people that come in a surf porn sites on our public terminals. We frown upon it but it isn't against library policy. If another patron has a problem with it, we ask the person viewing the porn to move to another terminal that isn't in direct view. So far it's worked pretty well. This person could very well be doing research and it's none of our business...as long as they aren't bothering anyone there won't be a problem.

Now it's the crazies who come in late at night, find the most secluded terminal, and begin...er...uh...handling themselves in a most inappropriate way that we have a problem with. Fortunetly that type of situation rarely happens and the campus police respond very quickly. The individual will get banned from the library and booted off campus. If they come back they get arrested for trespassing.

ANYWAY...

IMO, a strong library staff presense and just communicating with patrons that feel uncomfortable goes a lot farther than banning and arbitrary filtering.

But of course that's probably to logical huh?

:rolleyes:
 
So people can't do porn research at a library because there are bums who search for porn all day and the SCOTUS sez "porn bad?"
Whole lot of hand wringing over nothing.

Children will no longer be afforded unrestricted porn access at the library on my dime.

Uncle/Aunty pervies that want to look at porn - uh.. for uh...research :barf: - in front of children in the library - on my dime - will actually have to ask the librarian to suspend the filter in order to be able to access porn in public.

So, adults merely have to ask for the filter to be turned off, and it will be.

Wow! Really big drama. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

How about everyone that wants to do "research" goes out and secures their own damned "rights" with their own damned money?

Then again, I'm pretty sure that most of the "researchers" would miss being able to goggle at all of the kids in the room while they "work".

How on Earth did my country become so horribly warped? :fire: :banghead: :fire:
 
:fire: Censorship :fire: I hate it.

Given that libraries unfortunately have to enforce this :cuss: I would ask them to set up an 'opt out' policy. Basically, they should set things up so staff can (and will) disable filtering to terminals on request.

It goes without saying that all usage information gets shredded at midnight or close of business. There's no reason for libraries to keep usage information where the feds might find them :D

Talk to your library. They might go along with something like this. IIRC the act was not popular.

Cheers,
ErikM :evil:
 
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