Light 30-30 loads and Laser Cast Bullets

[tkcomer]

I know I haven't done enough testing on this but here goes. I'm loading 30-30 shells with 8.8grs of Unique and using 170gr Laser Cast bullets firing out of a Win 94. Very low powered loads. I'm getting around 6" groups at 50 yards. Bought some Winny 150gr factory shells to see if it's me, the gun or my reloads. But, it's pouring (Thank God) rain and will be for the next few days. The Laser Cast bullets are a gas check design, but mention you don't need them if you keep velocities down. Could this gas check design coupled with the low velocities be causing my "spray" pattern? I have a set of peep sights on the gun and can move the "pattern" around when I adjust on it. I'm shooting this gun off off a bench to try and sight it in, but these groups are confounding me. Any ideas?

 

[Jim Watson]

I got better accuracy from a .30-06 with the plain base Laser Cast than with the gas check bullet. I don't expect first rate accuracy out of bulk cast rifle bullets, but they ought to do better than that.

Clean the copper fouling out very thoroughly before shooting cast bullets, and vice versa.

 

[rcmodel]

I doubt it is the gas checks causing problems.
Your load is a middle-of-the-road power level with Unique and should shoot fine.

Have you checked the barrel for leading?

I think the only sure way to find out if it's you or the lead bullet reloads is to shooting some groups with the factory loads when it stops raining.


rcmodel

 

[Kimber1911_06238]

8.8 grains of Unique seems a bit too low to me. Where did you get that reloading data from?

 

[rcmodel]

Lyman #47 lists 7.0 grains starting, 10.6 max for Unique with a 170 cast GC bullet.

8.8 grains should just be a nice mid-level load.


rcmodel

 

[tkcomer]

There is very little leading in the barrel after tests. I figure that is from some of the flecks of lead you see on the bullets every now and then. No copper fouling that I can find. I agree with firing the factory rounds. That's why I bought 'em. I just put this peep sight on and I'm still getting used to it, so it might be me. I thought I'd check with the experts on that gas check design. I'll probably bump the powder charge up a little for the next bunch of shells I load. Not that much though. I have bursitis in my shoulder and heavy loads makes it hurt for days. I fired 79 of these Sunday and my shoulder doesn't hurt a bit. That and the 357s in my Puma. But 10 wumps from my 308 Remington and it hurts for a while.

 

[scrat]

Sights
Bullet
Powder
Primer
Cases

Sights need to be dialed in
Bullets need to be of good quality and weight
Powder correct powder weight and charge critical
Primer using different primers may effect performance
Cases Uniformity. All cases if fire formed then just need to make sure they are done the same, from cleaning to sizing to triming

Now if your sights are right on. Then you may do then next thing i do with cast bullets. Take a handfull and weigh them. you will always come up with differences in weight. group them together and use the ones that are consitant with each other.

Powder if you suspect powder you can try using different charges. Thus i would say try a heavier load. Or change powder.

Primers check a loading book some primers work better with different powders and bullets


Now for you i would for sure weigh out a good handfull of bullets to get a consistant weight. Then try a heavier load maybe 9.5 grains. Clean clean clean the barrel and check all cases for case uniformity.

 

[tkcomer]

Clean, clean, clean. You have that right. I've used Unique in handguns but I don't remember it being this hard to scrub out a barrel. I'm using standard CCI 200 primers as I was "told" that's all I need. I do have CCI 250 magnum primers on hand. So, you think case position and this small amount of powder might require the mag primers?

 

[scrat]

that and out of balance bullets. not saying they are bad. but to have the best accuracy in cast bullets you have to weigh them. try it take 20 of them and weigh them. you may get differences in grains from 1-6 grains each. now you are trying to shoot in the tightest groups possible. with cast bullets that may differ from 1-6 grains each. using the same weight of powder.


If you find lets say 20 of them that weigh 148 grains. and 20 of them that weigh 153 grains. Only shoot the 148 using 9 grains of unique. make sure everything is clean and cases are well prepped. I bet your groupings will be a lot closer.

 

[SASS#23149]

When I went to those bullets in an old Marlin I had bought,they were minute of mountain at best.!
CLEANED the bore over and over and over....it was a 50 year old gun after all...and it's a tack driver with 10 grains of unique at 50 yards.
Clean your bore with a copper cutter cleaner,and clean it some more.Don't go to the range with lead and copper jacketed bullets,you'll just be disapointed again,imho.
fwiw, I"ve read lots of posts that say the same thing as I am saying.
10 grains is still a nice mild plinking load,shoulder-wise.

 

[tkcomer]

OK, so I'll up the load to 10grs of powder and try magnum primers. I'll clean the barrel again with the Tipton's bore cleaner, as it uses ammonia. I only use that stuff when I shoot jacketed bullets. That's what I used when I cleaned it out the first time. No blue patches came out. I weighed 30 bullets. They are in the 164 range plus or minus .5grs, mostly around 163.9grs. The gun was made in '75 and saw very little use. Guy bought it to go hunting and decided he didn't like to hunt, so it sat. Until I got it. But SASS might be on to something. It could be my gun just flat doesn't like these bullets. I ordered a bunch of these when Cabela's had them on sale as my Puma loves the 158gr Laser Cast in 357.

 

[scrat]

well i tell you. your on the right track. you will find out when you go shooting next. wow so 150 grain bullets are weighing out to 164. I tell you what if you dont have any luck with those bullets i will buy the remaining of them off you. set a good price.
then pm me

I will load them with 20 grains of h4895. for my 94. oh ya

 

[joneb]

hi tk, I've used Fed 210 primers with Unique and Blue Dot for Nosler 125gr BT in my .308 Win with very good results, I don't think going to mag. primers is the answer. As already suggested more powder may help, giving the bullet a higher spin rate for stabilization. But just for fun I would load a few with 7.5-8gr of Unq. to confirm this, if 10gr of Unique proves unsatisfactory I would try Blue Dot and then 2400.

 

[SASS#23149]

YOu may have misunderstood part of my post.
I meant don't clean the bore,then go shoot a combo of jacketed and lead bullets.Not that you'd never like shooting lead in the gun.
sorry if that was not clear.

 

[QuickRick]

Light 30/30 loads....

My light W94 practice load for years has been the RCBS 150 grn cast bullet (WO gas check) with 9 grns of Herco (slightly slower than Unique) and large pistol primers. I found the large pistol primers provided plenty of ignition force and better accuracy with my load. You might give the LP primers a try. Also it is easy to deform cast bullets during the bullet seating process. This will definately give you shotgun patterns. The Lyman "M" dies or similar products will flare the necks properly before bullet seating. Hang in there and you'll find a combination that works. The ol 30/30 is one of the best cast bullet cartridges out there. Good shooting and God Bless....

 

[tkcomer]

I use the Lee expander die for rifles. Learned that the hard way. First loads I tested, when I went to clean the gun, lead shavings went everywhere. Pulled a few bullets and saw how the cases were scoring the bullets as I seated them. I'm not too sure about using pistol primers. After about 180 rounds through this gun, I found 2 primers with small black spots on them. They had tiny pinholes in them. Firing pin puts a pretty good crater in the primers. Even the 10 factory rounds I've fired have a nice crater in them.

 

[GooseGestapo]

To get decent accuracy with cast bullets, you must first remove ALL copper fouling. This means about 30-50 solvent soaked patches alternated between brushing, and dry patches. Takes overnight to accomplish properly. ( I use two soaked patches, followed by brushing and then 2-3 dry patches to soak up the "slop" and then repeat......... Then leave a trace of solvent in the bore overnight (no brushing after slovent patches). Then use dry patches in the AM next day to check for Blue-Green residue. (Color depends on active copper remover in solvent).

After the patches come out clean (no blue or green stains). Its time to take it to the range.

After firing about 20rds, clean again. Then after firing 2-5rds, THEN fire for groups. For peak accuracy with cast bullets, the bore needs to be conditioned much like an iron skillet. We "old timey" cast bullet shooters call it "black bore" conditioning. Firing jacketed bullets through it now requires the above process to be repeated so are "anathema" to a conditioned bore.(greek for "unmentionable" or "un-nameable")

Secondly, You MUST flare the case mouths sufficiently prior to seating the bullet, AND, you MUST crimp as a second step independent of seating the bullets. For this I normally do with a Lee Factory crimp die, but it's not an essential.

I usually seat the bullets with the seating stem set, but the die backed out sufficiently to NOT crimp the case mouth. I then set the crimp with the seating stem back WAYYYYY out. (When not using a Lee FCD)

I've gotten 1-hole groups at 50yds from several .30wcf's with 7.5 to 12.5gr of Unique, so it's not the powder charge. Pistol primers work as well as Rifle primers for this load so it's NOT the primers either.

The bullet diameter of the bulk cast bullets MAY be an issue. My Marlin/Glenfield M30 requires bullets cast .311" due to the Microgroove barrel. However, my brother's Winchester M94 also prefers the bullets unsized or at or over .311. It has more to do with the throat than the bore diameter. If the bullet are .308", expect the accuracy you've been seeing.

It's not at all uncommon for a cast bullet to come in at a different weight than "listed". A Lee .311-150grFNGC that I bought in '75 and later gave to my brother casts to 160gr with gascheck attached. An identical mould that I bought to replace the one I gave him casts to 157gr. Identical bullet mould but not quite identical bullets due to being cut with a different "Cherry" or in the case of the Lee's, with a different lathe set up.

I also use "dedicated" cast bullet brass that has been trimmed and heavily chamfered, and neck turned. Makes getting accuracy equal to, or better than jacketed bullets routine.

 

[tkcomer]

Bullet diameter is .310 and I am using the factory crimp die. And I'll have to go through the routine of getting the copper out after I test it with factory rounds. Thanks for all the advice so far. My Tipton's bore cleaner doesn't have that strong ammonia smell that it used to when I first got it. Would it hurt to put a smidgen of household ammonia in it to "freshen" it up? Or is that a really bad idea?

 

[joneb]

Your reloading trouble has been haunting me, I think the culprit is the bullet seating process ? it could be distorting the bullets causing inaccuracy, others have suggested this but I just wanted to reiterate.

 

[tkcomer]

Well, I just took a sized case and seated a bullet like I normally do. Then I pulled it with one of those hammer pullers. Bullet looks fine. The Lee expander or flair die puts just enough bell on the case that I can easily start a bullet by hand. Right now it's way too windy to even try the factory rounds plus I go back to work tomorrow. So it will be at least the middle of next week before I get to experiment again, weather cooperating.