Llama Pocket .45s - What are these? Good?

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I'm sorry that you feel so put upon. That the plunger spring came out of the tube wouldn't cause the slide stop to remove itself from the gun. You claim to be a machinist, and have made claims based upon that expertise, in the thread that you mention this debacle. Spotty qualities for a machinist, sir. If a firearm like a pattern 1911 is too complex to troubleshoot, just say so, but don't regale us with "I'm a machinist" as a reason to gain some credibility.

All I’m seeing here JR, is you and swampwolf making fools of yourselves which is really none of my business, but again I’m curious as to what you think my possible motive would be for lying about my experience W. llamas. Perhaps I think they’re stellar performers and I want to keep the price down?
I mean, something must have happened to get me from “Llamas are my favorite pistols” (which they were until my “suspicious anecdote”) to “ I wouldn’t own one at any price.” But let’s assume for the sake of argument that I’m just making it up as I go along how do you account for all the other people out there (like the gunsmith on Juanita street) who wouldn’t touch a Llama w/ a 10 foot pole? Are they all lying too?
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Remarkable thought process here. In your mind, starting in on a new thread disqualifies everything that you've posted in a similar thread. Why? Wasn't it the truth?

Gunsmith's are human. I know of several who have pet peeves about brands such as Remington, Ithaca, and HK. Much has to do with the availability of support from the factories, and parts. It may also have to do with the fact that the gunsmith hasn't worked on that particular weapon, but isn't about to mention that.

As far as my "starting debates", you're making such statements in a lot more threads than I have. The fact that I would ask these questions seems to be a personal challenge to your accumulated wisdom. You've had bad luck with 50% of your experiences, and only one of them actually involved anything mechanical. To blame an entire line of firearms for two examples is pretty simplistic.

I'm willing to stop here, if you are.

My experience, and that of the majority of posters in threads here has been that the guns are safe, and many have reported reliable. It doesn't sound likke their any worse than Kimber, or Dan Wesson. :)
 
Not to get into the middle of anyones pissing matches but Llama's are pretty much the Yugo's of guns.

There is a reason you can buy one for $30 and a six pack of cheap beer. I would suggest having one in a situation where you life depends on it.
 
I mean Irishmaddog did post the following requests for users experience w/ Llama firearms did he not? Experience that you, by your own admission, are unable to provide I might add.
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So, I guess in your world if I don't own a Korth or a Hi-Point I can't enter a discussion about them. Keep in mind that I never said Llamas were good or bad. I only requested that supporting data be referenced in support of the respective positions. JR47 (my "homeboy") provided same; you only repeat a decade-long ago experience when a Llama supposedly blew up in your hand while you were handling it unsafely.

Whereas anecdotal experiences have their place when assessing the worth of a product, citing one or two or even three bad (or good) personal experiences with a product is no reason to spend the rest of your life running around bashing (or lauding) the product. "Join dates" and "post counts" count for even less in terms of credible evidence.

When people's opinions differ from yours no one is calling you a liar-a false allegation that you continually spin. The discussion should be about the pistol, not the personality. JR47 is not my homeboy (though he seems like a pretty nice fellow!) and neither one of us are fools. Again: show me the"supportive, empiracle evidence to substantiate the claims..." You know, like JR47 did.
 
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One safety factor to consider is that most if not all Llama's do not have an inertial firing pin like the Colt 1911's they're a copy of. This precludes the pistol from being safe in condition 2, hammer down on a live round. In condition 2 the firing pin will protrude and rest on the primer of a chambered round so a blow to the hammer from a drop or other cause will likely fire the round.

I've known several Llama owners and most where not happy with them. The ones that thought they where a good gun, rarely shot them. For a rarely shot, keep in the drawer, defense pistol they're OK but not something you will likely get a lot of trouble free use out of.
 
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By the way, check these out.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.ph...highlight=treo
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.ph...highlight=treo
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.ph...highlight=treo
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.ph...highlight=treo
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.ph...highlight=treo
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.ph...highlight=treo
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.ph...t=Llama&page=2


I don’t see that I said anything offensive or obsessive in any of those threads and I would happily stand behind this comment in particular

98C5: sorry if you found my post offensive. I really meant what I said about you helping the lady out. Unfortunately I also meant what I said about Llamas being generally poor quality guns. I want to say they're ok for range work, but given that two respondents (one of them being me) to this thread have had them fall apart in their hands I can't & hell would freeze SOLID before I'd ever trust my life to one. The above post was edited for grammar and spelling the essential content was not changed.
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I’m done with the pissing contest. I admit that I used to post that llamas are made of soft pot metal, I will also go so far as to say that the metal they are made of is IMO cheap low quality metal. But since I can’t find an outside source to confirm that so I’m not saying it again until I can.

The following is my opinion based on personal experience,

1. I’ve never seen a Llama that doesn’t look cheap to me
2 I don’t care for the fit and function of the .380 Micro Max my wife owns
3 I have personally found the factory magazines too be pricey
4 I have personally experienced a catastrophic failure of a Llama .45 in which the gun first fired w/ the manual safety engaged and on the next shot fell apart while it was returning to battery. ( According to my reading here I am not the only one this happened to)
5 I have personally experienced major mechanical difficulties with a 9mm Llama I purchased from Ace Loans in Colorado Springs in which I was unable to remove a factory magazine from the magazine well until I pried it out W/ a screwdriver after the magazine came out I pulled two shims out of the magazine well that had jammed the magazine. The pistol also had several FTF/FTE problems

Given the above personal experience I simply can not recommend Llama firearms and If I remember correctly that was the original thrust of this thread
 
Buying used weapons is always a crap shoot. I always inspect the guns, then field strip them, at a minimum, before buying and shooting them.

During this inspection, I would usually find loose plunger tubes, which on a number of early model Llamas was held in place with two screws, or any shims in the magazine well. It would also enable me to look for evidence of soft metal, or pot metal.

I would NOT, nor have I, decided to blame entire lines of pistols based on the performance of used samples.

These guns, and those of other Spanish manufacturers were used by police and military units all over the world. Some, like the Model 400 (1921) Astra were in service from before WWI until the 1980s with South American Military Units. That's a pretty good run. The Star Model A Super, and B Super served with the South African military and police from the 1940s until the 1980s, in heavy combat.

The little Llama .45s were among the first down-sized 1911 pattern guns in the world. They have been in production for 50+ years. The companies that make them had been selling guns world-wide for over 100 years, many to Police and Military.

The book mentioned earlier on will be able to simplify the search for parts, like magazines. FYI, the current price of a used P6 magazine exceeds the prices for those of Llama.

Unlike some, I place more credibility upon the gun that I'm looking to use for a specific purpose than on Internet lore. While it may be the sole example of a 100% piece, it will work 100% for it's intended place in the gun safe. Condemning manufacturers is fool's work, as there will always be good examples and bad examples of anything. Stick with whats in your hand, and how it works. The guy next to you on the range may have an experience directly opposite to yours.:)
 
Again, I've stated my experience W/ Llamas and my opinion based on that experience. I've owned 4 I wasn't happy W/ 3 of them.

Based on that experience I can't recomend them.

Not sure what I can add to that or how I can make it clearer, but I'm done
 
Companys history been closed for about 3 years . Sold my Llama compact mini max for 250 and was glad to get that much.
Buy a better pistol . These little Llamas are way to heavy for a pocket pistol.
I had 3 Llamas over years Old one was fine Later ones were crap. Bought last one 2004 that was the mini.
Want a compact 1911 45 save your money and buy a Colt Defender or a Kinber . They are the most relieable.
 
More Llama

I found these pages while trying to get some info on the Lama Extra that I got after an old friend passed away and his wife gave me all his guns. I have some thoughts that may shead some light on the exchanges between JR47, SteveC, Swampwolf and TREO. I took my Remington 1911A1 and the Llama Extra and put them side by side on the table for a comparision. Except for the markings and the slide and barrel being longer and the grips they look the same. Some one said that most if not all Llamas didn't have an internal fireing pin, well I don't know about the rest of the Llamas but I pushed the hammer end of the pin flush with the slide and there was no protrusion from the breach face so thats an internal pin. From a list I found it looks like this Llama was made in 1939 or 40. It is chambered for the 9mm Largo. I don't understand how Mr TREO's Llama would fall apart. My Llama has the Browing barrel link system just like the 1911 which locks the barrel to the slide. I must defend TREO by saying that there are several job titles that use the word Machinist. The machinist trade has changed, in my opinion for the worst, over the last 30 years and now they have what is called an "NC Machinist". 99.9% of these NC machinist opperate one machine all day after someone else has set it up and programed it and are not general journeyman machinist and are stuck at that machine. Give them a print and some stock for a job that requires the setup and use of a mill, lathe and a grinder and they would be lost. Just my thoughts after reading the posts.
 
Give them a print and some stock for a job that requires the setup and use of a mill, lathe and a grinder and they would be lost. Just my thoughts after reading the posts.
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Nope I was a real machinist I worked in a couple of job shops that required me to do all my own set up and some programming
 
send me all the llamas you want,i'll gladly take them.I carry a llama minimax 45 in stainless'so far it's out performed my kimber cdp2 and is easier to carry as well because of it's size.Not bragging but my shooting ability makes it accurate and for 360.00 its trustworthy of a carry gun.
 
I have a llama Max II I purchased it 3 years ago I have had no problems or any jams. I use surplus mags and have put about 1000 rounds through it. I do carry that but my main carry is a eaa witness compact in 45 acp.
 
My father held the title of Tool & Die Maker, as well as Experimental machinist at John's Hopkins Applied Physics Lab, in Clarksville, Maryland. He was brought into the world of Machinists through the government programs after WWII, and worked for 20 years at the old Washington Naval Gun Factory. Both of my grandfathers also worked there. These men were responsible for their own set-up, and work. It varied from production-line style jobs, to manufacturing one-off pieces from exotic materials for satellites, or medical appliances.

That's the definition that I apply to a real Machinist. The ones who merely run the machines are Helpers from the old days.

As I own two Llama pistols, and maybe three after Treo sells me his, I'm looking to find a lab that can do testing on the metal of the pistols, without costing an arm and a leg. That should prove embarrassing to the "pot metal people".

FYI, another 150 rounds just went down-range out of the XI-B, and 100 rounds through the .32 ACP IIIA. No problems in timed fire or rapid fire.:)
 
I bought a Llama at a gun show last year. I like it alright. I wouldn't carry it. But every time I pull the trigger it goes boom and the shoot is in the area that I want it. The only thing that I use it for is for paper, and for that purpose It serves me great.
 
Thank you JR47. You hit that definition dead center. I am happy to hear that your father was a fellow tool and die maker, the work you describe was a routine day in the shop except when I was designing a punch press die. If I was still working ,retired in 1998 after 40+ yrs. in the trade, I would take the slide off of the Llama Extra to work and try to get an R/c reading. I wonder if anyone that complains about the cutter marks on a Llama has ever looked at an M1 Garand made by Winchester?
 
I would be hesitant to buy ANY short barrel 1911. Unless it comes with stellar factory support, pass on it.

Also, remember the old saying, "You get what you pay for".
 
Also, remember the old saying, "You get what you pay for".
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That old statement was true, in the old days. Today, you can buy over-priced works of art that masquerade as defensive firearms. Price had little to do with the original statement beyond a warning that the cheapest wasn't always the best.

Treo, if I were that weak-stomached, I'd avoid making statements that attracted such replies.
 
I owned a Llama Compact Mini Max that I bought new in box. Overall the gun was fairly constructed, rather rough, with a poor trigger. I had envisioned having some trigger work done on the gun, but my gunsmith will not work on Llamas. He very much enjoys and works on Spanish guns like the Astra and Star (he and I are both Astra 400/600 fans), but they are generally in a different league than the Llama. Not all Llamas are garbage but the history of the brand is hit or miss changing throughout the years. My understanding is that towards the end of the brand they brought in gunsmith consultants to try and increase quality, but it was too late. This is just my theory, but this is why you do find some very functional guns manufactured right towards the end, as was my Compact. The quality of Llamas has ebbed and flowed over the decades, so pointing to any one period or depending on that is not a safe bet. That said, while there are some Llamas that I wouldn't touch, I would go for an M82 if one presented itself at the right price.

My major complaint with the Llama, despite a very sloppy finish, is that the gun had razor sharp edges. The slide serrations would rip up my fingers and the front sight was brutal is it came into contact with anything flesh or clothing. The front sight as well as the sharp slide contours would rip up any holster that it went into. Had Llama chosen to "finish" the gun by softening some of these skinbusting edges, the gun might have had some potential for me. But then there was the trigger, gritty and not at all what one would expect on a 1911with a lot of side-to-side play.

Overall the gun was an okay shooter, but based on everything else as to overall quality I never had too much confidence in the gun's dependability. That was probably silly of me as there are some very rough guns out there that shoot just fine, but I was looking for a SD gun, and doubt of any kind is unacceptable. When I pick up my Detonics CombatMaster I have no doubts, and that makes a world of difference.

But heck, I paid $250 for the gun (which is about what it was worth) and ended up getting just under $200 for it on a trade, so I wasn't hurt too bad.
 
My Llama

I have a used Llama .9MM that I came across in my local gun shop. It was a nice looking gun and the price was right. After cleaning it up; it has been a fun gun to shoot. It is VERY accurate and I have had no problems whatsoever.

I will not carry it as a CCW however, due to the comments I have read.
 
Llamas and "pot metal:"
I think pot metal is the wrong term. Soft steel may be better wording. My personal experiance dates back 30 years ago. Take this incident for what it's worth. I'd bought a used Llama .22 semi. It was a great gun, built on the same frame as their small centerfires, the .32 and .380. Flat, easy handling, and a good gun to pack in the woods for varmints. Unfortunately, the firing pin, after a couple hundred rounds, began peening over the rear of the frame from hammer strikes. The gun went full auto and emptied the magazine quicker than I can type this. I replaced the pin rather cheaply and sold the gun as quickly as I could. Out of the dozens, maybe hundreds of guns I've regretted selling, that Llama wasn't one of them. Mores the pity. With proper heat treatment, it would've been a keeper. I couldn't trust it, however.
 
I have a Llama III-A in .380. Its the older version of the Minimax that is a scaled down 1911. I bought it used and have had it for years. Its 100% reliable and reasonably accurate. I don't carry it, but I would have no problem doing so.
 
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