Load Development To Determine A Rifle’s Actual “max” Load.

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USSR

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First, I will state that this is how I approach it, and it should only be done by experienced reloaders with the knowledge and equipment to do so safely. While this has worked well for me for a number of years, I accept no responsibility or liability for your load development.

Well, there are two types of Max loads. First, there are published Max loads, which are in fact not actual Max loads and vary according to the publisher's lawyers. And then there is the actual Max load for your particular rifle. If you are not an experienced reloader, then you should stay within the publisher's Max load data. However, if you are a reloader with the knowledge and suitable equipment to determine your rifle's Max load, then here is how I approach it with a modern bolt action rifle. First, you should have a chronograph, and have an idea as to what reasonable velocity you can expect from your platform (ie. boltgun vs. autoloader, barrel length, etc.) with a particular load. Second, you should be able to look at brass and see high pressure signs. The brass is the weak link in firing ammunition in any rifle, and will show signs of stress LONG before there is any danger to the structural integrity of the rifle itself. Always start out with a load well below the published Max load. You may not always be using the same brass or primer as was used in the reloading manual, so take that into consideration as well. I like to load 3 cartridges with a particular charge weight of powder, and then load several series of 3 cartridges with a slightly heavier charge weight, varying the charge weight of each series of 3 cartridges by 0.3 grains. At the range, you will start with the lightest charge weight cartridges and run them across the chronograph. Here is where you need to have an idea as to what maximum velocity is reasonable, and what is not. In a bolt action .308 Winchester with a 26" barrel, a 175gr or 178gr bullet can usually safely attain 2750fps with a suitable powder. If you reach that velocity without pressure signs, then don't push it. Now, what are the pressure signs. The first sign of pressure (both low and high) is transfered to the primer. With low and normal pressure, there will still be some "roundness" to the edge of the primer. Once you decide to run at a slightly higher pressure (but still within the SAAMI pressure specs), you will see flattened primers. While flattened primers are generally a sign of high pressure, they do not by themselves indicate that you are anywhere near the maximum pressure specified by SAAMI. Another sign commonly associated with high pressure is cratering of the primer around the firing pin indentation, although this can also be the result of an enlarged firing pin hole in the boltface. Basically, what I am saying here is, while you should take these signs into consideration, primers can and will lie to you. So, as you continue with the next series of cartridges (assuming you have no other signs and have not met the afore mentioned predetermined optimal velocity figure), the next two signs are what bring you to your particular rifle’s Max load, and cause you to stop further load development. Oh, and make sure you have a bullet puller, because you will have no doubt loaded a series of cartridges beyond this point. What will happen next is usually you will see a shiny mark on the headstamp of the brass. What this is is the brass is beginning to flow into the extractor hole in the boltface, and it gets shaved off as you turn the bolt to extract the case. If you see this, or if the bolt becomes hard to open to extract the case, then you have reached your particular rifle’s Max load and shooting should stop and all subsequent loads should be pulled. Any subsequent reloading using the same components should have a charge weight of at least 0.5gr – 1.0gr less than the load that showed high pressure signs. Using the above method, I have been able to obtain optimal performance for LR shooting, assuming I find an accuracy node in this pressure range. YMMV.

Don
 
Holy cow.

There's a belief among some reloaders that the maximum loads published in the manuals are some kind of cheat--that there's a real maximum, and the component manufacturers are just too lily-livered to show them to the general public.

This is reinforced by the fact that old (30+ years) manuals often show higher maximums than they do today.

And it's hogwash.

For every established cartridge, the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute (SAAMI) sets a maximum pressure. The cartridge case and the weapon itself are all capable of handling the maximum pressure without any hazard to safety, and without putting any undue wear and tear on the firearm. No factory ammunition exceeds this maximum, nor does any published handload.

The maximum pressure for each cartridge is determined by ballisticians and engineers, not lawyers.

However, published maximum loads typically nudge right up against the maximum. If you doubt this, you can check the powder manufacturers' web sites; most of them will publish the actual peak pressure for the maximum load they list.

A certain margin for error is built into the SAAMI-spec maximum pressure for each load. This is the difference between a maximum load and a proof load--a proof load being a load designed to basically break a gun if it isn't strong enough.

There are always stubborn adventurers who feel justified playing around in this gray area. They figure if they don't see signs of impending doom in their fired cases, everything is fine.

The problem is, the obvious signs of excessive pressure--e.g. brass discoloration, primer cratering or sticky extraction--are extremely imprecise. This is why there's that big difference in maximum loads between data published in the 50s and 60s and the data being published today. In the old days, the component makers relied on inspection of brass cases to see pressures were "too high". Current technology makes it easy for manufacturers to measure chamber pressures exactly, and as this technology started coming on-line in the 70s they found that a lot of the maximums they'd been publishing were actually over the industry-standard maximum pressure.

In other words, it wasn't lawyers that took the heat out of the reloading data. It was the piezo-electric transducer that did it.

The margin for error built into the SAAMI specs means that reloaders who ignore published maximums can usually get away with it. But if you weigh the risk of doing this against the actual benefits, reloading over the published maximum really doesn't make much sense.

For example, when shooting at 1000 yds. the trick is to make sure the bullet is still traveling faster than sound by the time it gets to the 1000-yard mark. This can be done pretty easily with 175s or 178s if you stay within maximum pressure; it's doubtful that many of even the most successful F-class competitors are loading over published maximums. And if for some reason your bullets aren't staying supersonic at 1K, adjust your load within the SAAMI specs. If powder A doesn't quite give you enough velocity, either powder B or powder C will do the job. Or, you can just load 155 gr. Scenars, which step out of the barrel faster than 175s (even at standard pressures) and hold their velocity about as well.

In other words, it's quite easy to do what you need to do without going over published maximums.

I'll just take solace from the fact that the OP lives at the opposite end of the continent, so I'll never have to worry about him being at the station next to me when I'm at the range.
 
There was an old procedure for setting loads back before even a bullet company could afford a pressure gun.
I think it was Speer said they would gradually increase the charge until ONE of the several excess pressure signs was seen; cratered primer (with a proper firing pin and hole fit), noticeably heavy bolt lift (versus factory) and ejector hole marks on the casehead, maybe others.
ONE, not two, not all.
Then reduce that load by SIX PERCENT and call it maximum.
That is, load 49 grains and it looks ok, load 50 and get a bright spot on the casehead. Your maximum load is not 49, it is 47.

Now all the manufacturers can afford a pressure gun with piezo transducer so they can go by SAAMI specs.

There was an interesting post here a while back about the deflation of loads. It said it was due to increasing sensitvity of the instrumentation. Buy a new transducer and it reads a sharper peak that the old one did not respond fast enough to register. But the newly visible peak is above SAAMI maximum. So cut the load to get the sharp peak down to spec.
Makes sense to me, although I don't KNOW that is the case.
 
One thing you guys should remember is that SAAMI pressures have just as much to do with type and vintage of firearm as it does the load. USSR has mentioned that his technique is for "modern bolt action rifle". This is a very important thing to understand.

Lets take the 30-06 for example, it has a SAAMI pressure of 60K while the 270 Win runs at 65K. Why the difference? Because the 30-06 is chambered in some older military type actions that may not be able to handle 65K while the 270 is not. So, SAAMI down sizes the entire 30-06 pressure numbers to accommodate a few older actions. Does this mean that a 30-06 in a "modern bolt action" will handle 65K? You bet! Without a doubt. Does this mean if I load my 30-06 up to 270 pressures I am over Max, yes. SAAMI max, not the rifles max. The same holds true for many other cartridges as well, 6.5x55 and 9.3x62 to name a few. I See no reason to run a modern bolt action at ancient pressures.

I am with USSR on this one. In my modern bolt actions I load up the rifles max. Not necessarily to run there, but I know exactly where it is.
 
The maximum pressure for each cartridge is determined by ballisticians and engineers, not lawyers.

Nope. The amount of "wiggle room" between the pressure that will likely be generated as the result of published loads is predetermined by lawyers, and it is up to the ballisticians and engineers to ensure that it is so.

However, published maximum loads typically nudge right up against the maximum.

Hardly. For example: VihtaVouri’s 3rd Edition Reloading Manual (1999) lists the following Maximum load for the .308 Winchester with a 190SMK bullet.

Powder: N550, Weight (grs): 45.6, Velocity (fps): 2517, Pressure (psi): Max.

Below is a printout from QuickLoad internal ballistics software listing the pressure specs figured using my components and loading regimen:

Cartridge : .308 Win.
Bullet : .308, 190, Sierra HP MatchK 2210
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.840 inch or 72.14 mm
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch or 660.4 mm
Powder : Vihtavuori N550

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.02% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-10.2 93 44.00 2452 2536 42215 6888 97.1 1.469
-09.2 94 44.50 2479 2593 43716 6958 97.4 1.447
-08.2 95 45.00 2506 2650 45272 7025 97.8 1.425
-07.1 96 45.50 2533 2708 46880 7090 98.1 1.403
-06.1 98 46.00 2560 2766 48541 7152 98.4 1.382
-05.1 99 46.50 2587 2824 50259 7211 98.6 1.361
-04.1 100 47.00 2614 2884 52042 7267 98.9 1.341 ! Near Maximum !
-03.1 101 47.50 2641 2943 53892 7319 99.1 1.321 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 102 48.00 2668 3003 55812 7369 99.3 1.301 ! Near Maximum !
-01.0 103 48.50 2695 3064 57807 7415 99.5 1.282 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 104 49.00 2722 3125 59879 7458 99.6 1.263 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.0 105 49.50 2748 3187 62032 7498 99.7 1.244 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 106 50.00 2775 3249 64270 7535 99.8 1.226 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.1 107 50.50 2801 3311 66597 7567 99.9 1.208 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.1 108 51.00 2828 3374 69018 7597 100.0 1.191 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.1 109 51.50 2854 3437 71538 7622 100.0 1

Please note, a 45.6gr load equates to approximately 47k psi, WELL below the 62k psi SAAMI maximum pressure specs. I have done load development using these components up to 47.5gr of N550 without any high pressure signs, before finally settling on a 46.9gr load.

How many eyes and fingers are you willing to pay for an extra 50 fps?

None, that's why I approach this in an intelligent manner. As I said earlier, this is only for experienced reloaders, and not for the neophyte.

Don
 
Pick up several reloading manuals and check your favorite recipe-- their max loads will be different. We have this come up relatively often on the forums as new reloaders post threads with titles like, "Manuals disagree- Confused?"

What many of the posts here miss is that barrels are different and there are often different reamers that can be used to cut chambers for the same cartridge.

What matters is the safe operation in your gun. If you have a tight bore, that might mean you need to run a couple grains under the published "max loads" to stay within the SAAMI pressure. A load that shows pressure signs in your gun but is within what some book says is under max pressure is an unsafe and unwise load in your gun. Likewise, the other situation is possible.

In the absence of instruments to measure pressure directly, the reloader can either choose to take the most conservative path (which may give up some performance) or use various indicators and experience to make a better load for his rifle.

ETA:

I am hesitant to attempt to detail my own method for determining the max loads in my gun - and I have done so for some cartridges and chamberings which had no published data - however, it's very close to what USSR described.
 
I don't see any consideration for accuracy. Max load isn't worth a hoot to me if it doesn't cloverleaf on the target. I also load in ~.3gr increments and stop at published maximums. If I don't find good accuracy with one of those loads using Dan Newberry's "Optimal Charge Weight - OCW" method, I change powder and try again until I get a safe, heavy load that groups well.

I'd also like to say that I've experienced a stiff bolt with no signs of flattened primers.
 
I don't see any consideration for accuracy.

Crimp,

Please note that in the above example, although my load development took me up to 47.5gr, I found my accuracy as well as low ES/SD numbers at 46.9gr. I have known Dan for a number of years (he used to be a regular on Snipers Hide), but I approach my load development in a different manner.

Don
 
Generally the most accurate load is somewhere south of maximum pressure and velocity. Velocity alone isn't as important as accuracy IMO. Some hand loaders like to brag about how fast their loads are, kind of a macho thing.

The manuals do not list maximum loads solely due to their meeting the SAAMI max pressure. Instead they list loads that are generally below the maximum pressures but when increasing the load leads to erratic pressure and accuracy. Rifle and pistol manuals are a guide not a cookbook with recipes due to the variability of components used by hand loaders.
 
Not being a wise guy, but.....
Why would anyone even care what the absolute max was? What problem would it solve? I frankly don't see why anyone would bother to waste powder and possibly wreck a good rifle to find out. And if there was a need to know, then why not buy one of the rifles that the powder manufacturers use in their labs and not use an off the shelf rifle at all?
 
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Based on that .308 example above, what happens if you load that 103 gr load in Dec., in Colorado and then you get a chance to hunt in Alabama and the temp is 80+? Think your pressures would still be safe?
 
Not being a wise guy, but.....
Why would anyone even care what the absolute max was?
I get this mental picture of someone standing on the firing line with a wrecked rifle, and with his face black and his eyebrows burned off saying, "Oooookay! Max is one grain less than that last one.":eek:
 
Without the ability to actually measure the pressures you are making, I think it would be wise to stay within published data.

Almost everyone is using strain-gauges now to measure the pressure. How do they work? They are applied to the chamber and actually measure the amount the metal STRETCHES. If you get a peak.....however brief.....above the maximum allowed, you are starting to do damage to the rifle. Your cases might not show it, your bolt lift might be normal, ect...but the damage is slowly being done.

If a manufacturer could increase his performance by 50-100fps over his competitors, he surely would do it! They don't because they are peaking over the limit and this, sooner or later, will do harm. Just my .02.
 
For long-range shooting, I want both accuracy and velocity, but I don't want to ruin my cases after one or two firings either. There is a difference between factory-loaded rounds and rounds loaded specifically for my rifle-- the former needs to work in anything that might be out there chambered in the cartridge; the latter needs to work only in my rifle.
 
I am one of those inexperienced reloaders who should not do this. I do not have the experience or equipment. I have only exceeded max loads when one book (Pet Loads) suggested it and that load proved not as accurate a the minimum load. While I do not think I will exceed published max loads in the manner described above, I want to thank all of you for this post. I am learning a lot be reading it.

As always, I appreciate all the time that members put into forming their responses.
 
One more factor to consider when you find a 'max load' is variance. Case capacities vary. Powder varies. Primers vary. Bullet vary. Temperature varies. Lead/copper buildup in the barrel varies.

If you work up a load that is at or near max, any variance in any of these factors can suddenly make your max load an over max load.

I personally feel that any presumed benefit from running a max load is completely wiped out by the potential for disaster.

A .223 will never be a 22-250 and a 30-06 will never be a 300 Win Mag.

If you need to move a bullet faster than the caliber was designed for, buy the right caliber.
 
I am one of those inexperienced reloaders who should not do this. I do not have the experience or equipment.
Nope you shouldn't, and neither should I. And I've been loading since the early 60s.
 
I hope I don't step on toes too hard...

Having discussed load development technology and lab procedures with several of the manufacturers' lab techs and engineers at the Shot Show, I say this:

There are quite a few people on this thread who do not understand how load data are developed. I only see two posts that sightly echo what the engineers told me.

To my fellow members: Be VERY careful of what you read on the internet, including this excellent Forum. It's your responsibility to make your own personal choices.
 
My .02

Hey there:
While I would not wish to make an arguement here I must agree with Ceemack and a few others. No offense ment here USSR. But velocity is a result of PSI , not the standard by which PSI is measured. As said already , All barrels are different. Temperature comes into play, Humidity, etc. Velocity that can be acheived in one rifle may not be acheive in duplicate one even with all things the same.
PSI spikes at the chamber and just after. Not at the chronograph. You were very correct in the fact that Primers lie. They are very good liers.

I have talked many times with different folks in the ballistics bussines.
There was never any mention of Lawyers. NASA makes and creates the ballisticts programs for SIERRA. Sierra only sells the disc. You are welcome to call them and check me out. Reading brass is not a very good way of developing loads any more. The bullet companies have taken the pain of this chore on and have done a very good job.

I have reloaded for 30 years now and have had times when I could not get certian rifles to shoot loads even close to max book specs. They were already too hot. When testing loads at anything above sea level you are not getting the real story at the chronograph. This where velocity will also lie to you were PSI is being concerned.

Also, Mil-spec brass can not tolerate (as a rule ) the same PSI as comercial brass. A simple water test shows that mil-spec brass is thicker brass therefore making it weaker because it can not strech as much as comercial brass. Some folks would need to know this.
 
I shoot at 1k and like Zak, "I want both accuracy and velocity". I am operating within SAAMI specs as determined by QuickLoad internal ballistics software, which takes into consideration many more variables than any reloading manual does. You guys shouldn't really feel threatened, as I am not doing anything different than most LR precision rifle shooters are doing. And, of course, most of you guys probably don't shoot in LR competition.

Don
 
Having discussed load development technology and lab procedures with several of the manufacturers' lab techs and engineers at the Shot Show, I say this:

There are quite a few people on this thread who do not understand how load data are developed. I only see two posts that sightly echo what the engineers told me.


Well, what did the engineers tell you?



.
 
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