Loading .223 driving me crazy

[awgrizzly]

I'm preparing to start loading .223 for a 16" AR15 with 1 in 9 twist. After reviewing the posts here I saw that H335 with a 55 gr FMJ-BT would be good to try (thank you). I know about working up charges and the need to feed your gun what works best for accuracy. Setting all that beside, the load data recommendations I find are weird. To start with, some here have said 25 grains of H335 and 55 gr FMJ pretty closely match mil spec. Sounds great and H335 is great to work with! But now I see in the min to max load data recommendations:

Sierra, 5th edition - 23.6 to 25.7
Speer Manual # 14 - 24 to 26
Lyman, 49th edition - 24.3 to 27
(so far so good)
Hodgdon web site - SFIRE 21.4 to 22.8 and SPR SP 23 to 25.3
(I don't know what SFIRE is and assume SPR SP has something to do with soft point... getting confusing)
Hornady, 7th edition (found on the LoadData.com web site) - 21.6 to 23.5
(huh?)

Hodgdon is confusing but the last one scares me, and I don't want to buy the book just to see if LoadData.com is wrong. Can you guys help please? (Oh, and what the heck does SPR SP and SFIRE mean?)

 

[m33p0n3]

The SP is for Spire Point. My Hornady 7th edition lists H335 with a 55 grain bullet as 20.8gr to 23.2 max.

 

[gregj]

I've very recently gone through the same thing, learning how to reload for my AR, and finding some loads that work. Mine is a RRA with a Predator Persuit upper (20" 1:8 twist, S/S bull barrel). I worked up two loads that my are seems to like. I'm still learning, so I'm sure these can be tweaked a little more. Both loads were based off my Sierra manual.

55gr FMJ FB, COAL 2.250", 25.0gr of H335 produces 5 shot group of .96" @ 100 yds.

69gr SMK HPBT, COAL 2.260", 22.5gr of H335 produces 5 shot group of .44" @ 100 yds.

 

[steve4102]

(I don't know what SFIRE is

It stands for Sinterfire and it is an oddball Frangible bullet. Unless you are loading this particular bullet disregard it's data.
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/lead-free-data.pdf

 

[awgrizzly]

SFire is a lead free bullet? Well that explains it. I'm sorry, I should have caught that on the Hodgdon web site. But Hornady is just strange. Is there any danger in under loading there?

BTW, I used the double autodisk settings for 25 gr of H335 from the Lee chart and it weighed in at exactly 25 grains and didn't vary any more than a tenth of a grain. H335 is a dream to work with.

 

[sweater914]

Manuals change due to minute changes in the powder composition, hell Unique is even "cleaner" burning than when my dad originally started using the powder. I don't consider 25gr of H335 (really close to AA2460) excessive after looking at where it sits on the burn rate chart. I use 25gr of Winchester 748 with a 55gr Hornady FMJBT as a basic plinker round. I've used the same load with AA2230 even though current online Accurate reloading data has it over the max listed charge, that same load is mid-level is some of my dad's older reloading manuals. So which manual do you run with? There is no concrete answer, pay attention to your brass and if you're outside of EVERY manual you can find you're on your own.

Whether you agree with this opinion or not, the lawyers I believe have had some affect on the reloading publications for liability reasons. Reloaders come in all kinds of different shades, I'd be conservative if I were publishing a reloading manual in the current sue prone environment.

 

[awgrizzly]

All fine and well, but when one book warns to not load below 23 and another warns not to load above 23 it makes my eyebrows shift. I just want to know if it was a mistake and I can shoot 25 grains without blowing my head off.

 

[jpwilly]

I just want to know if it was a mistake and I can shoot 25 grains without blowing my head off.

No worries, an over pressure round will most like blow out the magwell and destroy the upper and lower reciever, your head should come out intact.

I don't think 25gr with 55gr pill is going to be too hot but you didn't mention the brass your using and that could be a potential issue if it's thicker brass with less case volume than the loading manuals. You should check that.

 

[Fleet]

"All fine and well, but when one book warns to not load below 23 and another warns not to load above 23 it makes my eyebrows shift. I just want to know if it was a mistake and I can shoot 25 grains without blowing my head off. "

One way to avoid the angst is to quit shopping your loads. If you have one book, do what it says....EXACTLY! Comparing loads can lead to problems if you aren't all that familiar with reloading (and it sorta sounds like you're not), so if a load calls for a brand Y case with a brand X primer and a brand Z bullet with this range of brand A powder, just do what they say, no substitution. Start your load at the bottom end of the powder range listed, and work up.
You're giving yourself an ulcer for no good reason.

 

[awgrizzly]

No worries, an over pressure round will most like blow out the magwell and destroy the upper and lower reciever, your head should come out intact.

I don't think 25gr with 55gr pill is going to be too hot but you didn't mention the brass your using and that could be a potential issue if it's thicker brass with less case volume than the loading manuals. You should check that.

You give me great comfort, but I think I shall try the ammo in someone else's gun for starters.

The brass is new military 5.56 I bought on sale from Midway.

 

[awgrizzly]

"All fine and well, but when one book warns to not load below 23 and another warns not to load above 23 it makes my eyebrows shift. I just want to know if it was a mistake and I can shoot 25 grains without blowing my head off. "

One way to avoid the angst is to quit shopping your loads. If you have one book, do what it says....EXACTLY! Comparing loads can lead to problems if you aren't all that familiar with reloading (and it sorta sounds like you're not), so if a load calls for a brand Y case with a brand X primer and a brand Z bullet with this range of brand A powder, just do what they say, no substitution. Start your load at the bottom end of the powder range listed, and work up.
You're giving yourself an ulcer for no good reason.

You're correct on the experience part... been studying long and hard, listening to advice here, using great care (which led to this inquiry), and am planning my reloading projects. I have three books, as I've been taught, and consult all three to plan my loads lest one might contain an error. I based the loads on H335 powder by popular choice of loaders here, and 55 gr bullets for my 1 in 9 rifling. The bullets called for are 55gr FMJ BT, which include a range of brands. I selected Hornady cannelured, to assure proper seating and crimping. I selected CCI 450 primers, magnum as recommended for H335 powder, and CCI to reduce the risk of slam fires.

I live in northern Minnesota in the middle of winter and am waiting for the temperature to get substantially above zero and the snow somewhat below my crotch before being able to test the ammo. In the meantime I intend to work up some test loads ranging from a low to a target high of 25gr (which others here have said work well and still below the maximums provided in the three books I own). I started making up the loads with some 25 grain. I wasn't sure yet about the starting level because of variations and did some more checking.

The Hodgdon load tables made me scratch my head, but that was cleared up and now their loads agree with the other three. But the company that made the bullets I'm loading throws in something from out of left field that put the upper level way beyond the max and the lower level way below the min of all the others.

I'm not really at the ulcer stage. If a 25gr load is at all dangerous I suspect we would have dead shooters littering the ranges across America and political hacks on TV 24/7 condemning guns (well.. maybe that part is true ). What I see is a red flag... something may be wrong here. Part of what you guys have taught me is that too low a load can also be dangerous. I may be over dramatizing this whole thing (I'm a fun loving sort of guy), but I do have faith in my plan.

 

[zeke]

Different primers, brass, bullets and COL may make a significant difference in 223.

 

[kingmt]

Check the COL I'm betting Hornady's bullets are set deeper which will raise the pressure.

 

[awgrizzly]

Not the seating. But I found the answer... and I'm afraid to tell you folks.

It's a handgun load... TC



(please don't hit me)

 

[GooseGestapo]

REMBER; The .223 and 5.56x45 Nato are two different but very similar chambers. Also, there are profound differences between case capacities of different makes of brass......The Mil-spec brass can be as much as 5% lower in capacity (thicker brass.....).

The T/C has a very tight .223 Chamber, your AR more than likely has the 5.56 chamber (longer throat of different angle cut).

APPLES to ORANGES.....

Please do read the component list and rifle/handgun used to develope the data........
Mil-spec ammo is unsafe in some factory new .223's. Hence the issues with "strange data".

BTW; In my rifles, I've found the 25.0gr load to be MILD, and accuracy to be no better if as good as good old BL-C2.

 

[Rancho Relaxo]

I was thinking that sounded super conservative on the powder charges. Looking through my notes my CZ 527 shot 55 grain V-Max loads into .60" for five shots with 27.0 grains of H335 and 55 grain Nosler seconds into .868" with 25.0 grains H335. For what it's worth, I've never loaded hotter than 27.0 grains with any of my 223 loads.

 

[awgrizzly]

Thank you all very much. I had decided to use the load data from Sierra's reloading manual 5th edition because it is designed specifically for the AR-15 (they used a Colt for testing), they flag best accuracy and best hunting loads, and they provide multiple loads in 100fps MV increments (in the case of H-335 with 55gr FMJ BTs w/c, from min 23.6gr to max 25.7gr). I have loaded test samples (25ea) in 23.6, 24.3 and 25.0 grains. I will not try the max 25.7gr max load until I've seen how the others perform and have had a chance to inspect the cases. I can't load a sample and immediately test it because of the winter up here, so I opted to prepare the loads in advance to help relieve the winter doldrums. I'm aware of the potential for lower capacity of 5.56 brass so I will be careful. I've chosen these steps from reading books on reloading and because of what you folks have taught me here. I rely on your advice and assistance and am grateful for it.

Always a lesson to be learned. I wasn't relying on the Hornady load data so it didn't affect my plan, I was just struck by the extreme differences. However, as many times as I looked at that data wondering why it was so low, it did not register to me that it was for a Thompson Contender handgun. This proves how one must use extreme care, double and triple check. I can only hope that, had I been relying on that data to form a load plan, I would have read it more carefully. I will meticulously do so in the future.

 

[rodregier]

Man with one watch knows what time it is. Man with two watches not sure

Picking a manual with AR-15 pattern data is a good choice. Sierra is a great company.

I've used H335 with 55g projectiles in .223/5.56 - it's a good combo. Easy metering powder too.

Start low, work up.

 

[gregj]

^^ +1 My Sierra is usually my go-to manual, it usually has what I need. I used it to roll some nice shooting loads in my AR. Good luck and enjoy the process.

 

[Steve in PA]

When I began to reload for my AR, I picked H335 and worked my way up to 25.0 grains with a 55 grain bullet. It's a popular load, but best to work your way up anyway.

 

[Sediment]

Little tip to help when checking the book for load data. I have a square piece of plexiglass on my loading bench that is sectioned off for bits of information. I use a grease pencil to write in powder type, bullet weight and brand, etc.. Also included is the reference manual and page number. If I accidentally rub off what is written I can just open the book again fix the oops.

Remember to also only keep out one bottle of powder at a time and one box of bullets at a time. Mixing and matching is dangerous at best and easily avoided by simply keeping your work area organized and clean.

 

[mmay1]

awgrizzly, I started loading 223 recently and also started with H335. With 55 gr. projectiles, I used the Sierra guide and loaded 24.5 gr with 2.250" OAL. This load is the only one I have tried so far but produced a very tight group with my RRA AR-15. I was satisfied with this loading and will probably stick with it when using H335.

I used 26.6 gr. of H335 with a 40gr. Hornady V-Max in a Savage 12BVSS (1:12 twist) and this formula also produced very tight groups.

I have recently switched to IMR 4064, due to not being able to find a local, dependable source for H335. Hope it works as well for me as the H335!

 

[amlevin]

I used to load H335 for my AR's but got tired of chiseling the carbon out of the bolt carrier.

Changed to AA2230 and it's a lot cleaner. I get 3100 fps from a 25 gr load of 2230 under a 55gr Montana Gold in my 16" bbl'd AR's. COAL of 2.260".

As a bonus, the AA2230 is cheaper.

 

[awgrizzly]

Sounds good all.

I really appreciate the advice on keeping only that which you're using for a load on the bench. I keep all the stuff in a closed cabinet next to the bench. Since I share the reloading equipment with my son and we both reload multiple calibers it would be a mess if we did otherwise.

Sounds like a good idea on the Plexiglas pad. The way I now handle this is to work up a plan using Ms Word on the computer. I print it out and bring it to my bench. As I load I make notes on the printout and later enter it into the computer. Then when it's all done I make a print of it and insert it in a three ring binder with index tabs, which serves as a log for future reference.

There's something I would like to run past you folks for advice. I have an RCBS electronic scale on which one can press a button to change the current weight to zero. I had been weighing loads by casting a load into a case on the press and then dumping it onto the scale. But I found that some powder always seems to stick to the inside of the case (static electricity or whatever) which threw the weight off a couple tenths. I hit upon the idea of weighing the empty shell first, zero the scale, and then re-weight the shell with the powder in it. It shows the difference between the two weights which is the amount of powder in the shell. (Using this I have been getting nearly perfect loads with H-335, no more than a tenth of a grain variation, but most often perfect.) As a safety check, I figured should the scale lose calibration the odds are that the number shown would vary substantially from the intended load. It seems more accurate, fewer steps, and I don't have to putz with the powder. Can you guys see any danger in using this process?

I have a ton of other questions that I should make another thread for.

 

[awgrizzly]

I used to load H335 for my AR's but got tired of chiseling the carbon out of the bolt carrier.

Changed to AA2230 and it's a lot cleaner. I get 3100 fps from a 25 gr load of 2230 under a 55gr Montana Gold in my 16" bbl'd AR's. COAL of 2.260".

As a bonus, the AA2230 is cheaper.

Thank you! I didn't realize H-335 burned so dirty. I'll be sure to check that out, as soon as the temp gets substantially above zero and the snow gets substantially below my crotch. Your reply is going into my notebook.