Loading IMR3031 in a Garand using 168 grn. bullets.

[Thomasss]

Powders are still in relatively short supply, but I did find a pound of IMR-3031 and even was told its a great powder for my 168 grn. bullets in my Garand.
Now I looked up the latest Hornady's 11th manual and looked at Hodgdon internet and found neither source lists 3031 for a Garand. Jumping over to 30.06 rifle loads in Hodgdon though shows 3031 good for 150 thru 168 grn. loads with pressures at 57,000 to 58,000 psi. The only point I can see is to keep the velocity under 2750fps or so.
Any comments or recommendations?

 

[Charlie98]

Current Winchester (Hornady) Service Rifle data does not include IMR3031 data, but the older NRA suggested data does... but only for 150grn bullets.

There is the theory that any .30-06 load will work in a Garand, because it's a .30-06 rifle. My concern would be that faster powder, and the heavier bullet combo might beat up the oprod or action... but I don't know that.

I'll bet @Slamfire would know a little something about it, though...

 

[Slamfire]

IMR 3031 was a popular 30-06 powder from the 1960 articles in the American Rifleman. The experienced match shooters said not to use powders faster than IMR 3031 or slower than IMR 4064 in your M1a. When I got into NRA Highpower the Garand had been replaced by the M1a. Though it was sort of a right of passage to build your own NM Garand.

I do know the 86 year old ex Gun Club President was reloading 30-06 match ammunition with IMR 3031, because I have looked at what he was shooting.

The old IMR 3031 had long and thin powder granules. That did not throw consistently through my Dillion 550B, so I primarily used IMR 4895 which is short grained. I also knew that IMR 4895 was the powder used in the Garand and M14 National Match ammunition of the 1960's. And that IMR 4895 was the WW2 30-06 powder. I still consider IMR 4895 "the baseline" powder for the 30-06 Garand.

Recently I purchased a keg of IMR 3031 and now it is short grained! Took long enough. It worked great in my 30-30. I did use IMR 3031 long grain in my M1a, and it shot very well, functioned the mechanism perfectly.

I have gotten to prefer faster powders to slower powders in gas guns, since I learned about gas system pressure curves. As a rule, a powder that quickly drops pressure as the bolt unlocks, will tend to be easier on the mechanism, and provide more reliable extraction, all things being equal. All gas guns operate using the residual blow back effect. This works by unlocking when breech pressure is typically 650 psia or less. At this pressure the case sidewalls won't rupture as the case is pulled out of the chamber. However there is enough breech pressure to pop the case out of the chamber after unlock. This does not work well at all if the case is sticking to the chamber. A slow powder will maintain a high breech pressure at unlock, even though the maximum breech pressure is the same.

Still, I consider IMR 4895 "the baseline" powder for the 30-06 Garand. You can't go wrong with any of the 4895's, that is AA2495, H4895, and IMR 4895. You won't go wrong with IMR 3031 short cut as long as you keep velocities and pressures appropriate for the Garand.

I will say, load your 150's to "around" 2700 fps, your IMR 3031 will function your Garand just fine. More does not mean more. More does not get you more with the Garand. Its when velocities and pressures are pushed is when you will experience malfunctions. I have not seen them all, but I saw enough malfunctions with commercial ammunition on the firing to learn to roll my own. Old NM ammunition was impossible to find. At the time, there was no "Garand" specific commercial ammunition






This is real lot acceptance data for WC852 ball powder. It was used in the 30-06



A couple of things fall out. The 2750 fps velocity is only valid in one Frankford Arsenal pressure and velocity barrel. The Government Buyer is using calibrated cartridges from that Frankford Arsenal and guess what, the velocity of the Winchester barrel is "corrected" to the Frankford Arsenal values. Instead of the Frankford Arsenal cartridges giving 2750 fps in the Winchester barrel, they are reading 2675. You can also see chamber pressures are 40,200 to 41,800 psia. There are jokers who love to play three card Monte with psia and CUP and claim 60,000 psia is where you want to be with Garand ammunition. Presumably because more means more. And one advocate of hot loads is out to prove GARANDS ARE STRONG! At the time CUP was thought to be psia, and the bolt was designed with 50 kpsia loads, with safety factors applied. The bolt was not designed for 60 K psia. And as so far as getting 2750 fps at a lower than the WW1 maximum of 50 K CUP is better, and easier on the mechanism. Pedal to the metal reloading is hard on the mechanism and you will experience malfunctions. I ran my 168's around 2650 fps and my 150's around 2700 fps. My Garand functioned reliably and I shot good groups.

Incidentally, this is what I got using 59.5 grains of this powder with a 148 gr IMI military bullet

CMP Danish M1 Garand with VAR barrel

148 IMI FMJBT 59.5 gr WC852 IMI cases CCI200

4 April 2009 T=72 ° F

Ave Vel = 2683
Std Dev = 18
ES = 57
Low = 2647
High = 2704
N = 8

 

[Thomasss]

I ran my 168's around 2650 fps

In 30.06 rifle ammo, Hodgdon shows loading a 165 Horn. GMX at 41.0 for 2510fps to 44.1 at 2688fps with IMR3031, but they also show a Sierra SPBT at 45 grains at 2707 to 48 grains at 2825fps. I was thinking of a ladder test shooting a Hornady 165 SPBT starting at 44.2 going up 44.8 in .2 grain increments. How does that sound? I do have a Chronie to do a velocity check.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

IMR 3031 was a popular 30-06 powder from the 1960 articles in the American Rifleman. The experienced match shooters said not to use powders faster than IMR 3031 or slower than IMR 4064 in your M1a. When I got into NRA Highpower the Garand had been replaced by the M1a. Though it was sort of a right of passage to build your own NM Garand.

I do know the 86 year old ex Gun Club President was reloading 30-06 match ammunition with IMR 3031, because I have looked at what he was shooting.

The old IMR 3031 had long and thin powder granules. That did not throw consistently through my Dillion 550B, so I primarily used IMR 4895 which is short grained. I also knew that IMR 4895 was the powder used in the Garand and M14 National Match ammunition of the 1960's. And that IMR 4895 was the WW2 30-06 powder. I still consider IMR 4895 "the baseline" powder for the 30-06 Garand.

Recently I purchased a keg of IMR 3031 and now it is short grained! Took long enough. It worked great in my 30-30. I did use IMR 3031 long grain in my M1a, and it shot very well, functioned the mechanism perfectly.

I have gotten to prefer faster powders to slower powders in gas guns, since I learned about gas system pressure curves. As a rule, a powder that quickly drops pressure as the bolt unlocks, will tend to be easier on the mechanism, and provide more reliable extraction, all things being equal. The more reliable extraction comes from the residual blow back effect, where breech pressure pushes the case out after unlock. This does not work well at all if the case is sticking to the chamber, A slow powder will maintain a high breech pressure at unlock, even though the maximum breech pressure is the same.

Still, I consider IMR 4895 "the baseline" powder for the 30-06 Garand. You can't go wrong with any of the 4895's, that is AA2495, H4895, and IMR 4895. You won't go wrong with IMR 3031 short cut as long as you keep velocities and pressures appropriate for the Garand.

I will say, load your 150's to "around" 2700 fps, your IMR 3031 will function your Garand just fine. More does not mean more. More does not get you more with the Garand. Its when velocities and pressures are pushed is when you will experience malfunctions. I have not seen them all, but I saw enough malfunctions with commercial ammunition on the firing to learn to roll my own. Old NM ammunition was impossible to find. At the time, there was no "Garand" specific commercial ammunition

View attachment 1135007

View attachment 1135008


This is real lot acceptance data for WC852 ball powder. It was used in the 30-06

View attachment 1135005

A couple of things fall out. The 2750 fps velocity is only valid in one Frankford Arsenal pressure and velocity barrel. The Government Buyer is using calibrated cartridges from that Frankford Arsenal and guess what, the velocity of the Winchester barrel is "corrected" to the Frankford Arsenal values. Instead of the Frankford Arsenal cartridges giving 2750 fps in the Winchester barrel, they are reading 2675. You can also see chamber pressures are 40,200 to 41,800 psia. There are jokers who love to play three card Monte with psia and CUP and claim 60,000 psia is where you want to be with Garand ammunition. Presumably because more means more. And one advocate of hot loads is out to prove GARANDS ARE STRONG! At the time CUP was thought to be psia, and getting 2750 fps at a lower than the WW1 maximum of 50 K CUP was better, and easier on the mechanism. And that is where reloaders want to be. I ran my 168's around 2650 fps and my 150's around 2700 fps. My Garand functioned reliably and I shot good groups.

Incidentally, this is what I got using 59.5 grains of this powder with a 148 gr IMI military bullet


CMP Danish M1 Garand with VAR barrel

148 IMI FMJBT 59.5 gr WC852 IMI cases CCI200

4 April 2009 T=72 ° F

Ave Vel = 2683
Std Dev = 18
ES = 57
Low = 2647
High = 2704
N = 8

The only factory ammo I found to be worth a darn in any Garand was the UMC yellow box 150gr FB-FMJ. It shot close enough to HXP they might have been twins. Can’t find it anywhere now, though. It’s never been taken out of the catalog far as I know, it’s just never in stock.

 

[W.E.G.]

I like to keep pressures on Garand ammo about 50,000 PSI.

46.5 grains 3031 with a 168 does it.

 

[Slamfire]

I like to keep pressures on Garand ammo about 50,000 PSI.

46.5 grains 3031 with a 168 does it.

View attachment 1135056

Interesting program. Can it be used to predict gas port pressure?

In 30.06 rifle ammo, Hodgdon shows loading a 165 Horn. GMX at 41.0 for 2510fps to 44.1 at 2688fps with IMR3031, but they also show a Sierra SPBT at 45 grains at 2707 to 48 grains at 2825fps. I was thinking of a ladder test shooting a Hornady 165 SPBT starting at 44.2 going up 44.8 in .2 grain increments. How does that sound? I do have a Chronie to do a velocity check.

I never had a way to determine chamber pressure, what I eventually decided for an acceptable load, was based of course on velocity, and whether I could sense/detect the cycling of my Garand, shooting from the magazine, while prone. My load was 47.0 grs IMR 4895 with a 168 grain match bullet. When I fired prone rapid fire, the opening, closing of the bolt was just perceptible with my load. The whole event has to be milliseconds, but I could feel the "clip/clop" of the action. With hotter ammunition, the rifle fired, and the ejection and feed cycle was just one big bang. The cycling of the rifle was too fast to detect. So I kept my loads in the perceptible range. I know this is not based on operating rod velocity or breech pressure, but it worked.And the load will hold the ten ring at 600 yards.

As for ladder tests, find the load that gives the roundest and tightest group and stick with it. Garands are more sensitive to load variations that bolt guns.

I tried shooting 168's at 1000 yards in a Garand and the bullets tumbled. I used 175's in a 30-06 bolt gun, and in my M1a, and they were stable at 1000 yards. I never shot many 1000 yard matches, they were not scheduled frequently, and I decided given the mirage downrange, shooting a post was pointless. Having to use a frame hold because the target was a wavy blur, did not lead to good scores. I remember shooting the same relay as the USMC team at 1000 yards, and they were using M16's. The high shooter shot in the 180's that day, which showed how hard it is to shoot a service rifle at that distance.

Something to understand, the bolt rebounds off the receiver heel. And that the Garand was designed to pass a 6000 round endurance test. I think 6000 rounds was based on barrel life. Once the barrel was worn out, the Garand went to depot, where it was rebuilt, or scrapped. No doubt it was preferred that the rifle could be rebuilt again, but I have never seen anything indicating rebuild life was of any consideration in the selection of the Garand. Of course to pass a 6000 round endurance test, it has to last longer on average. I think it probable that the Garand was built with 2:1 safety factor on the receiver sidewalls, because M14 bolts and receivers were both cracking around 10,000 rounds. M14 bolt lugs are the same materials and same thickness as the Garand, and the Garand receiver was made of the same materials as a M14 receiver. I doubt any structural support elements of the receivers differ. The M14 was a product improved Garand, the magazine well is shorter, but outside of that, I think the material thickness and heat treatments were the same. I have seen several M1a receivers with cracked sidewalls, and I have pictures of Garands with cracked receiver heels. The M1a sidewalls are thicker than the military M14, I believe the M14 sidewall thickness are the same as the M1 Garand. As the M14 is a machine gun, I can't buy or handle a receiver to compare. I talked to the Marines when they were still using M14's, and they had lug cracking and receiver sidewall cracking from use. Bolt rollers also came off. I remember in 1996 USMC Julia Watson had just won service rifle week with her M14, and was leading during NRA week, when at 600 yards her receiver cracked, and her rifle started flinging eights. My hut mate was a couple of targets down from USMC Watson. That ruined her chance to win overall against all the match rifles, which would have been a real achievement. You hit that receiver heel enough times, it will crack. You hit it harder, it will crack sooner. And remember, most of the Garands out there have been through one rebuild, so you really don't know how many more rebounds your receiver will take. Just remember that when GARANDS ARE STRONG! is urging you to use 300 Win Mag level ammunition.

 

[Charlie98]

Interesting program. Can it be used to predict gas port pressure?

Yes... vaguely. If you know the measurements of where the gas port is, you can estimate where the pressure is when it hits the port. I can run a sample up for you if you'd like...

 

[Charlie98]

This is my 47grn IMR4895 Garand load, with the 150grn Hornady FMJ-BT bullet...

 

[Charlie98]

Recently I purchased a keg of IMR 3031 and now it is short grained! Took long enough. It worked great in my 30-30. I did use IMR 3031 long grain in my M1a, and it shot very well, functioned the mechanism perfectly.

Nice! I have a recent 8# of IMR3031... I don't know if it's short cut or not. I switched from IMR4895 to IMR3031 in my M1a... but because of the 16" barrel. IMR3031 is a more rounder round peg in that little round hole than IMR4895 was, even though it worked well enough.

Still, I consider IMR 4895 "the baseline" powder for the 30-06 Garand. You can't go wrong with any of the 4895's, that is AA2495, H4895, and IMR 4895. You won't go wrong with IMR 3031 short cut as long as you keep velocities and pressures appropriate for the Garand.

True that.


OP, here is the QuickLoad chart for 47grn IMR3031 behind the Hornady 168grn BTHP Match bullet. I would work up to that 47grn load, but it gives you an idea of where you are at.

 

[Jeremy2171]

Nice! I have a recent 8# of IMR3031... I don't know if it's short cut or not. I switched from IMR4895 to IMR3031 in my M1a... but because of the 16" barrel. IMR3031 is a more rounder round peg in that little round hole than IMR4895 was, even though it worked well enough.




True that.


OP, here is the QuickLoad chart for 47grn IMR3031 behind the Hornady 168grn BTHP Match bullet. I would work up to that 47grn load, but it gives you an idea of where you are at.

View attachment 1135106

Can you set it up to give you a pressure at 19 7/8" from case mouth? That is the approx. location of the gas port.

 

[Charlie98]

Can you set it up to give you a pressure at 19 7/8" from case mouth? That is the approx. location of the gas port.

If you can, it's beyond my user level. On the two pressure graphs I posted, you can estimate where the pressure at the port is by basic arithmetic... and that's why I said '...vaguely' to Slam's question. Using the program, you can put your cursor on the graph plot where you want it, and it will give you an exact value in a window. You can see, in the left text box near the bottom, the chart accommodates the length of the cartridge itself.

ETA: Using the 168grn IMR3031 chart above, at 19.7" the pressure reading is approximately 11000PSI

 

[Slamfire]

Yes... vaguely. If you know the measurements of where the gas port is, you can estimate where the pressure is when it hits the port. I can run a sample up for you if you'd like...

I was just curious. Having computer software to model pressures would be interesting.

 

[Slamfire]

Nice! I have a recent 8# of IMR3031... I don't know if it's short cut or not.

short cut IMR 3031 is on the left, the long cut on the right. I think the old stuff was as long as IMR 4064.



Long cut IMR 3031



picture from here:

https://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?powder_id=164

 

[Jeremy2171]

If you can, it's beyond my user level. On the two pressure graphs I posted, you can estimate where the pressure at the port is by basic arithmetic... and that's why I said '...vaguely' to Slam's question. Using the program, you can put your cursor on the graph plot where you want it, and it will give you an exact value in a window. You can see, in the left text box near the bottom, the chart accommodates the length of the cartridge itself.

ETA: Using the 168grn IMR3031 chart above, at 19.7" the pressure reading is approximately 11000PSI

can you run one with 50.0 H4895 and a hornady 150gr fmj?

lets compare numbers.

 

[Charlie98]

can you run one with 50.0 H4895 and a hornady 150gr fmj?

lets compare numbers.

Port pressure is approximately 12K PSI

 

[W.E.G.]

If you keep charge-weight of ANY medium-burning rifle powder to 47.0 grains or less with anything up to a 168, you won't be anywhere close to "bending op-rod" pressures with the Garand.

Not even in the same zip code.

Drop 47.0 grains of "anything" with confidence.

If you go crazy with really heavy bullets and compressed charges of fast powders, you will probably punch out the side of the RECEIVER before you lose an op-rod. I've seen a bunch of wrecked (side punched out in the back) receivers from people shooting 190's, and as much powder as they can fit, in M14's and Garands. I am yet to see a destroyed op-rod. I'm old. I can remember when we could destroy M14 receivers with hot loads, and just get new ones from DCM. For free.

I can remember when you just weren't manly unless you came off the 600 yard line with at least a bruise from recoil jamming your thumb into your cheekbone. Better yet, a BLOODY bruise. HARD HOLDERS!

 

[Charlie98]

you won't be anywhere close to "bending op-rod" pressures with the Garand.

I would generally agree on the 47grn part... but it's not all necessarily 'oprod bending' issues, it's peak chamber pressure, too.

 

[Jeremy2171]

Port pressure is approximately 12K PSI

View attachment 1135117

Numbers are a little off ..

Try this..set barrel length for 22.5" as that's where the port is. Then read "muzzle pressure " as our port pressure number.

 

[Charlie98]

Numbers are a little off ..

It's just a calculator... not a bible. The estimate does take into account the length of the cartridge (I checked after you mentioned that...) and I'm estimating the gas port to be about 2" rear of the muzzle... At that part of the pressure curve, give or take an inch, the pressure difference is less than 1000psi.

FWIW, I've seen some QL data that was completely off... it happens. When I ran these numbers up for you, using H4895, I was surprised the pressures were as low as they were, so I suspect there is an anomaly in the data set somewhere. As I said... that's beyond my user level...

 

[Slamfire]

If you keep charge-weight of ANY medium-burning rifle powder to 47.0 grains or less with anything up to a 168, you won't be anywhere close to "bending op-rod" pressures with the Garand.

Not even in the same zip code.

Drop 47.0 grains of "anything" with confidence.

If you go crazy with really heavy bullets and compressed charges of fast powders, you will probably punch out the side of the RECEIVER before you lose an op-rod. I've seen a bunch of wrecked (side punched out in the back) receivers from people shooting 190's, and as much powder as they can fit, in M14's and Garands. I am yet to see a destroyed op-rod. I'm old. I can remember when we could destroy M14 receivers with hot loads, and just get new ones from DCM. For free.

I can remember when you just weren't manly unless you came off the 600 yard line with at least a bruise from recoil jamming your thumb into your cheekbone. Better yet, a BLOODY bruise. HARD HOLDERS!

Back in the day, you had to learn to hold hard and take a strong position. Those Garands and M1a's would knock a shooter out of position, if his shooting position was not perfect. Once that elbow had to be reset, the group would walk to a new place on the target.

When the AR15 took over the firing line, you can be a squid, and still shoot well. Invertebrates now rule the line! Such is life.

Great information on the number of broken receivers with hot loads.

A bud of mine shot maybe 20,000 rounds on his M1a. The receiver cracked behind the elevation knob, and the welds broke on his operating rod. Well the tires wear on my vehicles too, and my cell phones stop working when they don't receive software up grades. Nothing lasts.

 

[Jeremy2171]

It's just a calculator... not a bible. The estimate does take into account the length of the cartridge (I checked after you mentioned that...) and I'm estimating the gas port to be about 2" rear of the muzzle... At that part of the pressure curve, give or take an inch, the pressure difference is less than 1000psi.

FWIW, I've seen some QL data that was completely off... it happens. When I ran these numbers up for you, using H4895, I was surprised the pressures were as low as they were, so I suspect there is an anomaly in the data set somewhere. As I said... that's beyond my user level...

Yeah we should be seeing about 58k psi chamber and 9k at the port.

Quickload puts out data based on what was input. So something a little off can make a big difference from reality.

It is a good tool to give you an idea if you want to go down that certain path however.

 

[Jeremy2171]

My concern would be that faster powder, and the heavier bullet combo might beat up the oprod or action... but I don't know that.

It's actually the opposite. Slower powders create more port pressure. The action getting beat up is based on the strength of the oprod spring. Thats why it's a good idea to change them when they are less than 19.5". Oprods get tweaked from lack of lubrication more than anything else.

 

[Jeremy2171]

I like to keep pressures on Garand ammo about 50,000 PSI.

46.5 grains 3031 with a 168 does it.

Something to think about...75% of the ammo I tested has chamber pressure above 50,000 psi. For those of you worrying about chamber pressure...if you shoot AP you are in the 60-61k psi range for some of the "warmest" ones..57k or so for the weaker ones.

So 50,000k psi is not a hard limit and you still have plenty of room to play with if you need more velocity etc.

For quickload set your barrel length to 22.5" and use "muzzle pressure" as your reference. If you are getting 8500-11500psi at the muzzle you are fine.

Keep your garand properly lubed and with a good oprod spring and you won't have any issues.

 

[Rodfac]

Back in the day, you had to learn to hold hard and take a strong position. Those Garands and M1a's would knock a shooter out of position, if his shooting position was not perfect. Once that elbow had to be reset, the group would walk to a new place on the target....When the AR15 took over the firing line, you can be a squid, and still shoot well. Invertebrates now rule the line! Such is life.

Oh yeah...a weekend shoot and the whole team would come back with an insipient black eye and 'grip tight' paws that'd take a week to clean up.

One petite story...shooting at Alemeda in the mid 60's, a suicidal cock pheasant took a perch on one of the range flags as we settled in for the 600...the range master issued a stern "unh, unh, ah" over the PA system, but the first shot of the sighters resulted in a flying ball of feathers...nobody owned up, but there was a round of laughter from the ready line to the pits...

Great thread guys....lots of memories...best regards, Rod