Local Bill to help those who use firearms for self protection

[phoglund]

I'd like to hear the groups opinion about this bill recently introduced here in Montana.

Wells seeks greater self-defense protection

By WALT WILLIAMS , Chronicle Staff Writer

HELENA -- Rep. Jack Wells, R-Bozeman, isn't particularly proud of his nephew.

Wells recalled reading a National Rifle Association magazine article about an Oklahoma lumber yard that fired five employees after a drug search of their vehicles turned up guns, but no drugs.

He found out later the plant manager was his nephew.

"I can't wait to see my nephew because I am going to throttle him," he told the House Judiciary Committee Thursday.

Now Wells is carrying a bill that would give Montana's gun owners greater protection in defending themselves with their weapons.

But those in charge of enforcing the law say all it does is give criminals a better chance of hiding their actions.

"Please do not give those who abuse firearms the upper hand in the courts of Montana," Gallatin County Attorney Marty Lambert asked lawmakers.

Wells' House Bill 693 would make it legal for a person to display a weapon in self-defense, as long as the weapon is pointing away from the other person.

It also orders law-enforcement officers to thoroughly investigate a crime to turn up evidence of self-defense if that is used as a plea, and it forces employers who prohibit employees from defending themselves with guns to provide a level of security they would have otherwise enjoyed.

"We think this is a family-friendly bill that allows for the protection of the family," Harris Himes of the Montana Family Coalition said.

But Lambert, who also is president of the Montana County Attorneys Association, said self-defense is recognized under the law, although the burden of proof rests with the person making the plea.

Under Wells' bill, law-enforcement officers would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the person wasn't engaged in self-defense.

"This is a radical departure from very well-established principals of law we've had in this county for the last 215 years," Lambert said.

One committee member wanted to know, for example, if Wells' nephew had used a gun to stop the lawmaker from "throttling" him, would the nephew be protected under the bill?

"If I lived through the shooting, I would defend him in court that he had the right to shoot me," Wells answered half-jokingly.

No action on the bill was taken Thursday.

(Edited to include link to news article.)

http://bozemandailychronicle.com/articles/2005/02/18/news/guns.txt

 

[Pilgrim]

Wells' House Bill 693 would make it legal for a person to display a weapon in self-defense, as long as the weapon is pointing away from the other person.

So it is not a threat of force if it is pointed elsewhere? The logic escapes me.

It also orders law-enforcement officers to thoroughly investigate a crime to turn up evidence of self-defense if that is used as a plea, and it forces employers who prohibit employees from defending themselves with guns to provide a level of security they would have otherwise enjoyed.

I think it is already an accepted practice that if a shooter claims self-defense at the scene of the shooting the police do investigate to see if it is true. Just what does 'thoroughly' mean in the context of this proposed bill?

The latter supposes that all armed citizens are equal in the degree of security they enjoy by carrying a gun. We all know that possessing a gun does not make one a gunfighter, any more than owning a guitar makes one a country and western star.

Pilgrim

 

[Drizzt]

House legislators tentatively endorse self-defense gun bill
Associated Press

HELENA - Some branded it an invitation for gunfights in the streets, while others described it as capturing the spirit of the constitutional right to bear arms.

The House took the latter view Wednesday in endorsing a bill that would give Montanans more freedom in how they handle their guns.

The measure, tentatively approved 68-31, says that simply brandishing a firearm in self defense is not a crime. It also bars employers from forbidding workers to keep guns in cars or trucks parked at the business.

But representatives refused to restore one provision to the original bill by Rep. Jack Wells, R-Bozeman, that would have allowed Montanans to carry concealed weapons without a permit. That, lawmakers said, went too far and would expose law officers to increased danger of being shot.

Wells argued that his proposal merely tries to allow what authors of the U.S. Constitution intended when establishing the right to bear arms in the Second Amendment.

Allowing people to carry a hidden weapon will make criminals think twice in seeking victims and that will reduce crime, he said.

"When criminals know that citizens can carry and don't need a permit, criminals tend to go somewhere else," Wells said. "It's just a deterrent to the bad guys. This just gives the law-abiding citizen his basic right to defend himself."

Those objecting to allowing unpermitted concealed weapons said it will lead to convicted felons toting handguns and that is a danger to law enforcement.

"The permit system is intended to keep concealed weapons out of the hands of those with criminal records," said Rep. George Golie, D-Great Falls. "I don't think we can just take away that process and have law enforcement accept that."

Rep. Ed Butcher, R-Winifred, said the current permit requirement does nothing to stop people from carrying a concealed weapon without such a document.

"I know a lot of unsavory characters running around my neighborhood with concealed weapons without permits," he said. "It's going on. You're not stopping anything. The best defense against a criminal is to have a perception that a citizen is actually carrying a gun."

Once the House rejected the idea of abolishing the need for concealed weapons permits, the debate turned mostly to a provision in the bill that allows people to display a firearm as a means of defending themselves, so long as they do not aim or shoot at another person.

"This is about the right of people in Montana to self defense, the right of Montanans to defend themselves if threatened," said Republican Floor Leader Michael Lange of Billings.

But Rep. Brady Wiseman, D-Bozeman, said the bill "justifies vigilantism in Montana" and will lead to shootouts outside bars. "This is simply a recipe for escalating gun violence and I cannot support it," he said.

Wells dismissed his prediction saying very few law-abiding citizens get into gunfights.

He portrayed his bill as a referendum on gun rights: "If you believe in gun rights and don't believe in gun control, then vote for my bill."

Nineteen Democrats and 49 Republicans voted for the measure; 30 Democrats and one Republican were opposed.

http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1&display=rednews/2005/03/03/build/state/69-gun-bill.inc

 

[Aguila Blanca]

But Lambert (Gallatin County Attorney), who also is president of the Montana County Attorneys Association, said self-defense is recognized under the law, although the burden of proof rests with the person making the plea.

Why should the burden of proof rest with the accused? That's unconstitutional on its face. The concept of innocent until proven guilty means if I say it was self-defense, then it was self-defense unless and until the State can prove otherwise.

How did this clown get elected? In Montana?