Local training class forbids serpa holsters

[bergmen]

I'm with WardenWolf on this one. If it can happen, it will happen.

And it has.

Dan

 

[Certaindeaf]

I'm with WardenWolf on this one. If it can happen, it will happen.

And it has.

Dan

And what can't, has nor won't happen?

Any physicist worth his salt will tell you that you can throw a basketball through a mountain. And stuff. Oh, and I ain't no fysisist.

 

[bergmen]

And what can't, has nor won't happen?

Any physicist worth his salt will tell you that you can throw a basketball through a mountain. And stuff. Oh, and I ain't no fysisist.

It requires the action of the release with the trigger finger to be far too close to the trigger in both proximity and actions. All goes well with regards to alignment and your cool.

The required actions of the SERPA release sets you up for a disaster if a slight misalignment or frustrated action takes place.

The trigger finger placed alongside the frame as the draw is accomplished with other holsters is done so with a passive placement of the trigger finger. Actuating the SERPA release requires an active use of the trigger finger and is an action that is not intended to be related to controlled trigger release. This is the key right here and crosses the line as far as I'm concerned.

And as I said, if it can happen, it will.

Dan

 

[Mainsail]

It's not a training issue, it's a practice issue. The only training I've gotten with the Serpa is the directions that came with it. In thousands of draws, loaded or unloaded, fast or slow, my finger ends up extended straight along the frame well clear of the trigger.

During the draw, the pad of the trigger finger, more exactly it's almost the joint, touches the release lever and the gun is free. If someone is too stupid to read the directions, they're too stupid for the holster, and guns in general.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I guess I was being a little too academic.

 

[Big Bad Bob]

Im with Mainsail, if you cant read and follow instructions then go ahead and win a darwin award with your firearm.

The only place I have seen the stated problems with the serpa are on youtube with morons like Tex Grebner and over paid training academy's "simulating" what could go wrong. Interesting that most of these guys are also pushing their own brand or sponsors holster.

I'll reiterate, if these holsters were so unsafe then the Army and Marine Corps would have issued an ALTRACT stating to end use due to safety, and TACOM and PEO Soldier would remove the NSN from the books. Hasnt happened yet, and the Army is ultimate safety nazi's for those who dont know.

As it is, I carried mine for over a year, like PYSOPSPEC, in a pretty harsh and negative climate and condition and never once witnessed all these supposed issues. And yes you can ND with an M9, with or without the hammer down.

People want to blame their equipment instead of themselves for their NDs, again if you follow the instructions and train appropriately then it shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Striker]

As it is, I carried mine for over a year, like PYSOPSPEC, in a pretty harsh and negative climate and condition and never once witnessed all these supposed issues.

Well, I only carried in (sic) mine for 13 days in the proable same harsh and negative climate and conditions, before I got rid of it (destroyed it actually) due to release malf described in my post above (#47) ......the other 550 days or so, I carried my M9 in a different rig.

The only place I have seen the stated problems with the serpa are on youtube with morons like Tex Grebner and over paid training academy's "simulating" what could go wrong.

I'm not a youtube actor and I've never attended any overpaid training academy. But I'm not a moron (nor a FOBBIT either for the record) and I didn't need an ALTRACT from Big Army to "direct" me to take corrective action when needed. My comments about the holster are experience based, in a situation in which rapid conflict resolution at a close interpersonal distance was my highest priority of the moment. Admittidly, my experience is only a statistical sample of one, but it was all that was needed to change Mama Striker's little boy's mind regarding the Serpa system.

Bottom line is that if works for you and you have confidence in it, good on you. It doesn't for me.

Just my opinion and experience, as always YMMV.

 

[WardenWolf]

As has previously been stated, if your fingers are too long, or too short, these things present an extra hazard. Too long, and, your finger will curl inward. Too short, and you will stretch to press it and then your hand will have to readjust on the grip, possibly placing your finger inside the trigger guard as your hand moves backwards; the gun also often turns somewhat to the side doing this, possibly endangering others. They're only safe for people with an average hand size, under ideal conditions. Fact of the matter is, people HAVE shot themselves in the leg using this holster, and it happens far more often than with other holster designs, including the various thumb-release models.

Your trigger finger should have ONE use, and ONE use only with regards to firearms, and that's working the trigger. A screwup with any other finger won't result in the gun going off. When you try to do too much with any one appendage, things go wrong, and you lose coordination and / or speed. I myself have seen so many situations where the level of fine control decreases dramatically when you start trying to do too much with one hand, finger, etc. Trigger-finger release is inviting a disaster.

 

[psyopspec]

ND presentation considerations aside (I agree that this is primarily a training issue),
and with all due respect to Big Bad Bob and pysopspec observations, I can state from personal experience that a Serpa release can bind and prevent presentation of the pistol. (M9, thigh rig)

It's all good. As it was, I'd only heard of this occurring 1 time. Had it happened to me or one of my battle buddies, I'd feel the same as you.

Not a big issue at the end of the day. I doubt I'll ever put on a uniform again (c'mon IRR countdown clock...) and these days I do most of my carrying in a Supertuck.

 

[crossrhodes]

Fletc

If you fart wrong at FLETC they issue a safety memo. Remember the ICE agent who shot himself in the leg when re-holstering. The cause was the draw sting on the FEDERAL AGENT windbreaker got caught in the trigger guard. You still see those wind breakers sold by tupper gore..oops I mean uniform solutions. So anything can happen and anyone can put a bad label on anything.

 

[Superpsy]

I'm not too surprised.

Just came back from Handgun I-III at TDI (southern Ohio) and they make you sign an additional waiver to use a Serpa holster (that, kind of surprised me). The waiver acknowledged the inherent risk in using such a holster, that they are not liable, that they warned you blah blah blah typical lawyerese. TDI allowed you to use the holster but the danger of the design was reinforced several times. (As an aside, TDI was awesome! Best gun related money I have EVER spent).

I don't own a Serpa but I can see how using your trigger finger to release the gun could be dangerous. That just seems like a simple conclusion to me. That's why 5.11's thumb drive holster makes more sense to me.

 

[Longhorn 76]

I would have no problem using one, especially during strenuous action.

However, in 5 years of IDPA, I have only seen one AD, where the guy shot at his leg while drawing, and he had a serpa holster. His pocket knife deflected the bullet away fron his leg, though.

 

[fatcat4620]

Serpas are a bad idea for SO many reasons. Requiring you to use pressure from your trigger finger to release it, in a direction that, if you accidentally follow through, can cause you to hit the trigger, is just plain stupid. It's just dumb from an ergonomics standpoint. You're going to be holding that lever down as you draw the gun. If you get the gun out before you release your finger, BANG!

All of you who use them for actual carry need to think long and hard about what might happen during a high-stress situation where you're not thinking about your draw and instead using gross muscle movements. This CAN happen, and it can happen to YOU. Don't sugarcoat it. These holsters are NOT safe.

As for the instructor, he was simply trying to protect his students and himself from a design that is inherently more prone to inducing accidental discharges. The last thing anyone wants is a round going off in the wrong direction and hitting someone.

Do you have one or ever used one? I have drawn my glock from it's serpa so many times I dont even think about the button. I just grip the gun indexing my finger in the same spot I do in a ready position and the gun comes out. I have tried to replicate the issues people seem to have and found out difficult after properly training myself. I will say that I have probably done over a thousand draws to get it down but would consider that a small number and I am always training.

 

[Destructo6]

When did you last check with them? The prohibition was announce January this year.

Every trainee that has arrived at the station in the last 3+ years has a Blackhawk level 3 Serpa. The academy has been at FLETC Artesia for the last 8 years.

OIG and FLETC personnel aren't exactly "field" agents.

I have drawn my glock from it's serpa so many times I dont even think about the button.

That's the way it should be. If you think of the Serpa lock like a button to be depressed before you can pull, then you are doing it wrong. Just lay your finger along the side of the slide, indexing your trigger finger (as you should), then the lock becomes transparent.

Like I said, we have 700 agents at this station, with 15,000 in the service overall. The vast majority use the SERPA level 3. If there were a safety problem with it, I'd know. There is not.