Long Range guys: Help me (a new guy) narrow down my optic choices

[Rmeju]

Where I'm at, and my shooting goals

I've got a Remington Sendero II SF in 7mm RM that I've been doing some load testing on at 100 yards. I'm just about at the end of that process, with very good results, but the Millet LRS-1 I've got on there now, although acceptable for 100 yards (and perhaps beyond), just ain't going to cut it for what I want to do now.

For long range shooting, I want to start (but not end) with paper punching. I belong to a club with a 1000 yard range, and I want to make full use of that. I'd like to go even longer than that eventually, but first things first. I figure target shooting is probably the easiest place to start for making long range shots. After that, I would like to move on to LR hunting, and (after watching Tiborsuarus Rex's ("T-Rex") line of YouTube videos), I'd like to at least explore the possibility of trying out "practical" matches. This apparently means I will need a versatile scope, but it may also mean (and don't be bashful about telling me), that my expectations of a single scope may be unrealistic.

My research so far

I've read some of the tutorials on this forum by Zak Smith, looked at the posts of certain respected long range THR posters (such as taliv) and I've watched T-Rex's line of videos up through #22, which got me through optic selection (I plan to continue, but I'm pausing here to buy an optic). I've looked at other stuff, but these sources stood out from the others. The one frustrating thing about T-Rex's final optic selection videos is that some of the info seems outdated (several of the "best picks" are no longer available), and don't get into detailed comparisons of the optics I'll be considering).

My budget and buying philosophy

My budget is not fixed, per se. Rather, I will describe my budget in how much "political capital" I will have to spend with my wife to get the scope Obviously, the less painful, the better.

That spectrum is as follows: $1,500 (slight grumbling, but she can't complain, based on her "toy" spending), $2000-2500 (moderate grumbling, I will have to take my lumps, but I will get to spend the money), $3,000 (I will still probably get it when the dust settles, but it will be painful), $3,000+ (uncharted waters, but the worst that can happen is "no").

I am a pay once, cry once kind of guy. I am not currently of a skill level I would consider "worthy" of scopes in these price ranges, but I do intend to get there, and I'm not afraid to make an upfront investment in the right equipment. That said, I don't want to simply pass over a scope in a lower price tier that's a proven performer merely because more expensive scopes are (generally) better.

Required/Desired Features

Please do not hesitate to correct me if anything I'm saying sounds "off"... I'm here for advice!

100% reliable turret tracking is a must. Excellent glass is a must (seems like fully-corrected apochromatic glass, ED, HD, etc. would be best, if my budget allows). Unless I've grossly misunderstood my research, first focal plane is a must (if variable power). I want the reticle/turrets in Mils. I want a reticle that allows for holdovers/holdoffs. I want enough travel in the elevation to cover bullet drop out to 1500 yards or so (the published data for 1000 yards with my current 7mm bullet says the drop at that range is 204.5", not sure what that would be at 1500), which probably means at least a 30/34/35mm tube. I'd be willing to live with travel covering me out to 1000 yards. Must be reasonably durable.

Fixed power seems like it has a lot of things going for it, although I'm not sure I can get away with that given all the things I want to do with the scope. If I were to go fixed, it seems like 10x would be my best bet.

If variable power, it seems like for my needs, it should go at least up to 15x, maybe up to 25x.

Looks like most of the objectives available for the scopes I'm looking at fall into the 42-56mm range, which I'm ok with.

Looks like there's a LOT of reticles that fit my bill, from standard mil-dot, to Horus H-59.

Other features, such as zero-stop and illumination (e.g. I could be hunting in low-light), and reasonably large travel per rotation are a definite plus.

Am I missing anything?

What (I think) fits my bill

In no particular order, here are scopes that appear to satisfy my wants. If I'm missing something that should be on here, or considering something I should dump, let me know... that's the purpose of the post!

NightForce ATACR F1s (4-16 or 5-25)
USO LR-17 (or perhaps ST-10 TPAL, if I'm going fixed, or ER-25 if I'm feeling brave enough to argue with the wife about it)
Steiner T5Xi (4-16 or 5-25... or maybe the Mil Tac if I'm feeling brave)
Hours Falcon
Vortex HD/HD Gen II
S&B PMII (although might be too much $$)

I haven't had a chance yet to sift through the numerous models of Swaro, Zeiss, Premier, IOR Valdala (or others that I missed), and any recommendations would be appreciated.

Ok, I know that was way too long, but hopefully some of you out there can help!

 

[notaglockfanboy]

Do you have a comfortable couch, because you may need it!! I know I would if I spent that much on a optic for any of my rifles. On a serious note, NF, Vortex, or S&B will suit your needs, just find what works for you. Heck any of the optics will, and will do so for a lifetime.

 

[AR15activist]

I think Nightforce is considered to be the very best brand.

 

[aubie515]

You DO NOT want to buy a Horus scope. They are crap....Horus reticles are great, but their optics are not up to par. Some find the Horus reticles to be "too busy" but I can tell you it's a useful reticle once you learn how to use it.

If this was my money, I'd go with the SWFA 5-20 Illuminated optic. I've owned a few of the SWFA and find them to be very good for the money.

Bushnell HDMR are great optics as well if you want to try Horus reticle.

You cannot go wrong with

SB PMII, NF F1, US Optics.

I know if I'm spending the money you mentioned, I would not want to buy a straight power optic.

I personally like MIL vs MOA and I'm a fan of FFP vs SFP.

 

[strambo]

I can't advise you on an exact model, but it sounds like a Mil/Mil, 4-16x power range in the $2-$2.5k price range would meet your needs (and then some) w/o expending too much wife capital. Also get a nice 1 piece mount with at least 20 MOA built in. As your skills improve, you are going to want to upgrade that rifle as well...

 

[earlthegoat2]

Do you have a comfortable couch, because you may need it!! I know I would if I spent that much on a optic for any of my rifles.

Or that with 3000 to spend on a scope, a comfy couch would be a pittance to someone who is so independently wealthy.....OK just kidding.

I had the pleasure of shooting a S&B PMII 5-25x attached to an AI 338 rifle and shooting at 1000 meters was pure joy compared to the squinting I had to do with my own Leupold 25x fixed scope. Target clarity was definitely there....at least for the conditions.

I don't think anyone should every justify that kind of a price point though. For any reason.

 

[taliv]

first, add this to your reading list. http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/09/19/tactical-scopes-field-test-results-summary/
it's good info, but it is missing a very key ingredient that has led the tactical/match community away from some of the top picks there - reliability

- you seem to be on the right track

- of the scopes on your list, the as-yet-unreleased NF ATACR FFP 5-25x and the vortex gen2 4-27x are at the top of my list. i would not personally consider any of the others on your list. USO has some good scopes but not those. Do NOT buy a S&B PM2 or horus. The stats look good but reports on the steiner have been decidedly mixed, though I don't have any personal experience with one. if you try it, be sure to report back

-of scopes not on your list, bushnell makes some scopes that would result in only a moderate amount of complaining, and while the glass isn't something people ooh and aaah over at the range, it's more than sufficient for anything but bird watching. they are reliable, track great, and are very compact

- definitely go variable power.

- any of those objective sizes are usable. just depends on how much light you want and how much weight you're willing to carry

- do NOT get a horus reticle. Most of the NF reticles are pretty good. The vortex tree is almost ok, but i wish i had the straight crosshairs instead. Do not get mil "dots". get a reticle with hashes on it. In the bushnell, the G2 is the way to go. With USO, i like the Mil-MPR a lot. The MSR in anything is fantastic.


if i were buying today, i would get the vortex. if i could wait a few months, i'd try the NF because
-i like the reticles better
-it has capped windage
-it is so much lighter weight
-their reputation for reliability (though i've had no problems with my 2 vortex)

 

[WYOMan]

I'm going to second the suggestion for the SWFA SS 5-20. I'm going to go even further and say that the classic fixed series and the 3-15X42 would be an option. I'm running a 3-15 on one of my rigs, and I'm perfectly happy with it. My IOR's have a SLIGHT optical edge on it, but not enough to justify the huge price difference. SWFA scopes are tough, track true, and their CS is great.

 

[Jenrick]

taliv: I'm curious, why do you recommend not going with a Horus reticle?

-Jenrick

 

[taliv]

several reasons...

first, the only time it's helpful is in the fairly rare combination of events where you need to shoot a very small target, far away, you don't have time to dial elevation, and you've got more than say, 1.5 mils of wind.

with less than 2 mils of wind, you're pretty close to the vertical crosshair and most reticles have major hashes that stick out far enough that you can judge within a .1 or no worse than .2 hold.
if you've got time to dial elevation, you should because a) you'll have the horizontal crosshair to hold for wind, b) you'll be using the center of the glass instead of the edges so you'll have more peripheral vision, c) you won't get confused and use the wrong line, which happens a lot

so, the downsides are that through evolution, human eyeballs are attracted to movement. if something moves, it usually gets your brain's attention, and your eyeballs usually move there instinctively, especially in the peripheral. When you put little dots and dashes all over the place, away from what you're actually looking at (the target) then when the gun jumps due to recoil or the guy laying next to you with the braked 300wm, you will be distracted and look at some meaningless dot at the exact instant you should be picking up trace. so you will probably not see trace and maybe not even pick up impact. you'll probably see the big cloud of dust behind the target, but not be able to tell where it came from and thus not be able to give an accurate correction. even without that, it's harder to follow the trace as it crosses all the lines in horus reticles

we recently had this discussion on snipershide and frank mentioned that the horus seems to be more popular in the desert west where you get big clouds of dust when you miss. in the Southeast, there's probably 2-3' of vegetation obscuring any dust, unless you're shooting into a berm.

oh, and it usually means a couple hundred dollar increase in cost of the scope due to license fee from horus

 

[coloradokevin]

I'm also in the category of "don't get a Horus reticle". They're too busy, and provide too little benefit in my mind. My favorite reticles at the moment are the H2CMR that S&B offers (I have that in my 3-20x PMII) and the SCR reticle in the Steiner T5xi. I almost always find that I have time to dial my elevation adjustments, and I typically hold my wind on the reticle (since wind changes happen more suddenly). The ability to make precise 0.1 MIL wind hold adjustments in these reticles is something I really like.

Honestly, I think Steiner built a great offering with their T5Xi scope, and they're making them here in Greeley, CO, with German glass. I had a chance to visit their factory, talk to the head of their project on this scope, and see the finished product in person a few months before it was released to the public. They really took shooters into consideration with this scope, and a few local competitive shooters I know where involved in the actual design recommendations for this optic. I think you get a lot for your money with this scope, and while the S&B is still a bit better, you're looking at diminishing returns at that point (paying a LOT more for a little more).

My shooting partner just got a T5Xi and says he loves it so far. We shoot at a variety of distances, and targets, and I've watched him shoot IPSC sized silhouettes out to 1,250 yards with his T5Xi on an Accuracy International AT .308.

I've also heard great things about the Vortex Razor Gen II. I've only ever shot through a Gen I Razor, and I thought it was a nice scope. Rumor has it that things have improved even more with the latest offering, though I've never actually held one.

Anyway, the nice thing these days is that you can get some really nice scopes from quite a few manufacturers if you're willing to pay for them

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

I also have to go with the don't go horus crowd too. I have a scope with a H59 sitting in a drawer downstairs and have since went back to a cross hair style reticle, the SCR offered in the Steiner T5XI that now sits on my rifle as Kevin pointed out. The horus is too busy and I find I'm more precise to dial as the horus still has some "dead space " and while better than flat out Kentucky windage there is still a small element of error holding in the space.

I love my Steiner T5Xi and think it's some of the Best Glass for the money. The reticle is awesome and IMO the only one that comes close is the S&B H2CMR. The mixed reviews spoken of are probably a little skewed as the biggest cry babies on the hide were the same ones complaining before they were released so something fishy is going on with the mixed reviews. It almost seems like some of the complainers may work for other optics companies but thats just speculation on my part. Mine tracks well and has had zero issues.

The Vortex Razor also has a good following and great reviews. The best in my opinion is the S&B but you will pay for it and have to judge if the small increase in glass quality is worth the jump in price to you. You are looking in the right places and just pick what suits you best without going too far out of budget.

 

[taliv]

some very good shooters like the H2CMR reticle, but having both dots and hashes just screws with my brain for some reason.

Steiner does have some great reticles, including the MSR. I'm not recommending people avoid the steiner, like the horus or S&B. I just wouldn't personally get it because I think the vortex is just as good for less money (edit: or maybe more money depending on which scope). If you like their reticles or the way their knobs are or whatever, you'll probably be happy with them. I will say they attend a lot of matches and donate to a lot of prize tables. lots of people use them. I'd for sure read the reviews, but like colo said, reviews aren't gospel... just anecdotes and only half of the story at that

 

[MCMXI]

Looking at that H2CMR, I can see the purpose of the .2 mil hash marks on the horizontal but what's the reasoning behind the .2 mil hash marks between 2 and 3 mils on the vertical? If using holdover rather than dialing that's around 400 to 500 yards with a .308 Win (100 yard zero). Seems a bit odd.

 

[Rmeju]

Thanks for all the great replies guys! This was really helpful. Especially some of the "don't buys." I think I cured myself of the H59 when I saw it added $500 to the scope I wanted...no thanks.

I've done some more follow up shopping, and I'm leaning toward the NF ATACR F1 5-25x56 in mils, with the Mil-R reticle. Not out yet, but I'm willing to wait. According to the guy who answered when I called NF, they said 4/30 is the "supposed to be" release date, but he thought expecting 6/1 would be safe, and if it turned out to be on-time, so much the better.

Steiner & Vortex were close (and hey I still haven't bought anything yet). I'm sure none of them would be the wrong choice. At some point, if I'm going to get into LR shooting, I just have to get something, and start working on my actual shooting skills. The main thing is that I'm feeling much better about a purchase decision right now.

I'm still listening if anyone has more to say, but I just wanted to make sure I let you all know that I appreciate all your help!

 

[taliv]

1911 it's for mil ranging. I.e. If you know the size of a target you can measure it with the reticle and calculate how far away it is

 

[MCMXI]

Duh ... talk about tunnel vision! I'm so used to seeing ranging marks at the outer edges of the reticle. If were starting over I'd try to have the same reticle in all of my scopes, or at least as similar as possible. As it stands I have four different styles in five scopes.

 

[coloradokevin]

I'm not recommending people avoid the steiner, like the horus or S&B.

Out of curiosity, what don't you like about the Schmidt and Bender? My only gripe with them is their price, but it has been a darn fine product for me otherwise.

some very good shooters like the H2CMR reticle, but having both dots and hashes just screws with my brain for some reason.

When I first got the scope I was wondering if the open dots would bother me (they don't). The dot/dash mixture doesn't really bother me, and it's easy to pick up your "whole MIL" when you know they're each represented by the dot. You can then easily bracket down to 0.1 MIL using the dashes in the reticle.

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

Thanks for all the great replies guys! This was really helpful. Especially some of the "don't buys." I think I cured myself of the H59 when I saw it added $500 to the scope I wanted...no thanks.

I've done some more follow up shopping, and I'm leaning toward the NF ATACR F1 5-25x56 in mils, with the Mil-R reticle. Not out yet, but I'm willing to wait. According to the guy who answered when I called NF, they said 4/30 is the "supposed to be" release date, but he thought expecting 6/1 would be safe, and if it turned out to be on-time, so much the better.

Steiner & Vortex were close (and hey I still haven't bought anything yet). I'm sure none of them would be the wrong choice. At some point, if I'm going to get into LR shooting, I just have to get something, and start working on my actual shooting skills. The main thing is that I'm feeling much better about a purchase decision right now.

I'm still listening if anyone has more to say, but I just wanted to make sure I let you all know that I appreciate all your help!

What is it about the NF that makes you want to go that route? Everyone with the SFP ATACR seems to like them and the glass is reported to be excellent so it is not a bad choice. I'm a little disappointed in Nightforce myself as I really think they could have hit a home run with the F1 if the price were right. The problem is that quoted price for the F1 was $3100 last I heard and at that point I'm just going S&B as they are "the gold standard " of scopes with a wide selection of reticle options. That's just my biased opinion though and I'm just curious what stuck out about the NF F1...

 

[Rmeju]

The prices I've been seeing are $2,813, and with coupons, it shouldn't be tough to shave another $100 off that.

Probably the biggest reason I'm leaning toward the ATACR it's that the SFP ATACRs reviewed on the precision rifle blog testing seemed to perform the best in the most areas I cared about, and the F1s (appear to be) fixing all the things I didn't like (SFP being the big one). I don't really have a dog in the fight yet though, since I haven't bought anything, so fire away if you think I need more convincing!

 

[taliv]

I'm so used to seeing ranging marks at the outer edges of the reticle.

yeah, that's the nice thing about the MSR and USO's mil-mpr and others. you can range at the center of the target, which is important for 2 reasons:
1. to get an accurate read, you have to hold the scope even more still than when actually shooting, so you have to get a good NPA and if you're ranging at the edge, you'll have to get 2 solid NPA for each shot
2. the glass is better in the center. it gets a little distorted on the edges in a lot of scopes

kevin, pm inbound (but look at the "what the pros use" gear survey and you will see a steady decline in the number of PRS shooters using S&B from 2012, 2013, 2014. will drop again in 2015)

 

[coloradokevin]

kevin, pm inbound (but look at the "what the pros use" gear survey and you will see a steady decline in the number of PRS shooters using S&B from 2012, 2013, 2014. will drop again in 2015)

Thanks… I've always assumed the decline of S&B use in PSR matches use was more associated with the increase in sponsorships. I know at least three shooters in my region who previously ran S&B scopes, but switched due to the fact that they became sponsored by other optics manufacturers.

I'm going to do some research on the issues to see what I can find out, and start doing some experimenting with my own scope!


EDITED TO ADD:

I think a few people in this thread might benefit from the article that you spoke about. I know it gets routinely posted on a couple of other forums, so I'll add the link here (as long as that's okay by you guys). In reading the article again myself, I noticed a few things:

1) Schmidt and Bender is still the kind of the hill in the PSR matches
2) Many of the other choices shown in that article didn't exist ten years ago. As such, I think there's some real likelihood that others have caught up to S&B, rather than S&B getting worse.

I will say that S&B has the clearest glass I've ever seen, and I've never had an issue with my scope. But, the price point for these optics is so darn high that I think they're going to lose market share to many of the other quality scope manufacturers out there.

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/10/24/best-tactical-scopes-what-the-pros-use/

 

[MCMXI]

I found the reticle adjustment test very interesting but perhaps lacking in a couple of important areas. (Note: No scope I own was tested so I don't have a dog in the race)

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/08/13/tactical-scopes-mechanical-performance-part-1/

The author "broke in" the elevation dial on each of the scopes before testing by "rotating each knob through its entire range 50 times!". This seems like a good thing to do but I would have liked to see additional testing and a different (more realistic) starting position of the reticle.

1. Start each scope at the center of the elevation travel minus 20 moa (5.925 mils) rather than at the bottom of the elevation travel since this probably represents the majority of users.

2. Return the reticle to the 20 mil starting line recording the number of clicks to get back to zero since this is a very important feature of any scope.

3. Once back at zero (20 mils), rotate the vertical adjustment to get the reticle back to 0 mils and record the number of clicks and then back to zero and record the number of clicks. Repeat at least 10 times.

A scope that returns to zero and has repeatable clicks, regardless of error is fine since that can easily be accounted for.

 

[lykoris]

Love my steiner 5-25x56 and it sits nicely atop an ai axmc.

I was going to put an S&B on it but supplier here in Lux cut ties with them in Germany, seems they only care about servicing the US military and their reputation has suffered for it.

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

The PRS data is interesting and it's kind of cool to see what the top guys run but it is also a little deceiving as well. Most of that top 50 list are sponsored match shooters so the data may be a little skewed with sponsor provided equipment. One may not be shooting a Bushnell or Vortex Razor scope because they think its the best but rather because they are pretty good and that is what the sponsor told them to put on their rifle if they want to continue to receive free stuff. I'm sure if sponsorships were banned from the sport (just a point to provoke thought not saying it should or will happen) you would see a major change in what those top 50 shooters use going back to what they can afford or what they personally like. It does not help S&B much that they don't seem to sponsor shooters like Bushnell, Steiner, Nightforce or Vortex. Those companies seem to be at the matches helping out and providing scopes for the prize table also unlike S&B.