Long Range Guys in Here....

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Have had hands on experience with everything including FN's, the only exception would be the Sig Blaser though did come that close >< to getting one in 300WM.

So I would would rank them.....

It's really a toss up between the AI and Sako and then:

FN SPR
Rem 5R
Savage
 
JD,

I'm just curious, is that SPS Tactical as accurate as they say? I'm leaning toward getting an SPS in a .308 cal., wondering if that would be any less accurate of a rifle? Something for the 200 - 300 or beyond range. Thanks
 
Oh yes it's very accurate, but the stock doesn't offer good cheek weld so I use an Eagle stock pack.
I know it would shoot alot better in a B&C or HS Precision stock.
I'm pretty sure mine in .223 could print on the chest of an IDPA target out to 500 yards if not more with my handloads.
 
Thanks JD. I know we all read how much better one brand is over another one, but in this instance and wanting to buy one, this is why I ask. Funny that the cheek weld on that stock isn't that good, guess that's how other companies stay in business, they do! Ha Thanks for your answer.

Jim
 
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So I would would rank them.....

It's really a toss up between the AI and Sako and then:

FN SPR
Rem 5R
Savage

Uh-oh. The Savage fanatics will be chiming in at any time now.

Don

I don't think Savage fanatics mind being underestimated at all. That to me is a part of the point, if you win people will notice. It's like driving your homebuilt stock car in the Daytona 500 and winning the race.
 
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wechlish, being new to long range stuff, I recently went through what you are going through now. After some trial and experimentation, and knowing what I know now, I would have gone a completely different route.

I'll just say this to start. I will never again buy an off the rack rifle, unless it's just so dirt cheap that I'd be stupid to say no.

From your post, I'm am going to assume that you have the budget to build a pretty nice rifle. If you decide to go AICS or the like, then more power to you. I would hardly consider an AICS an off the rack rifle. Still, if you haven't had your hands on one, I'd suggest that you get your hands on one before buying. I wanted to buy an AICS chassis and did some research; and apparently there are many that do not like the ergonomics of the rig. The biggest complaints being that the cheek piece did not go low enough and that they were too heavy.

If I had it to do over again and was going to build a semi custom rifle, this is what I'd do.

First, start with the action. I like the 700 action. It's strong, simple and has very few parts. Well, fewer than the Savage with the floating bolt head, anyway. 700 actions can be had pretty cheaply, by either just buying the action for around $400 or buying an ADL model for under $400 and stripping it for the action.

Second, I'd get a a barrel from Krieger (or Rock Creek or Bartlein, etc). $300 or so.

Third, get a trigger. I personally like the Shilen, but have a Timney as well. Each goes for around $125.

Fourth, get a stock. Plently nice stocks out there. Good bang for the buck stocks at $200 to $300 are the HS Precision and the Bell & Carlson line. Both have full length aluminum bedding blocks. If you want to spend the money, there are AICS, Manners and McMillan for stocks starting at around $500 up to the sky.

Fifth, figure out your magazine configuration. This will run you anywhere from about $75 for a "stock" internal mag config to about $700 or so for something that is compatible with AICS mags, including a couple of mags. I'm running Wyatt's mag systems right now. They were cheap and a drop in. I plan to go to Badger when I can afford to be without my rifles for a while. Probably when I go on vacation.

I'm suggesting this route for a few reasons. The first is that you're going to spend the money anyway. Might as well do it right the first time. The second is that the custom barrels will have benefits. You'll get higher velocities due to tighter chamber tolerances. You won't have to load ultra long to get to the lands. The bores will foul much less than just about any off the rack rifle. They will generally be more accurate to some degree.

I'm not saying that taking this route will get you what might be considered a top grade build, but it will be a top notch shooter. The only thing you might change to make it a top grade rifle would be the action, but now that would take you into a whole new ball game with custom actions starting at around $900 for the action only.

I'm running two .308s right now. Both are based on Remington 700 actions. Both are sporting Krieger barrels. One is a 22" and the other a 26" and both are MTU profile barrels. I'm running a Shilen trigger in the 26 that sits in an HS Precision stock. The 22 has a Timney trigger and rides in a Bell & Carlson M40 stock. When I say that they are both tack drivers, I mean that in the literal sense. I have literally shot flies, tacks, nails, paint balls, etc. using these barrels at 100 yards with 168 and 175gr bullets.

Each rifle cost me around $1500 each, plus the glass, my preference being the Nightforce 5.5-22X50 which adds around another $1800 to each. Going this route may not garner a bunch of ooohs and aahs at the range, but they certainly shoot well and won't break the bank.

Just to give you an idea, this is my 22" rig when it was sitting in an HSP stock. I have since gone to a Bell and Carlson M40 because I like the skinnier palm swell for prone shooting, which is what I do with this rifle.

DSC_0041.jpg
 
I agree with TonyAngel. I have pieced rifles together that shoot as well as an AI, TRG, or GA Precision. If I didn't want to take the time or gamble, I would go with GA precision or AI.
 
Jeff56 said:
Well there is that whole thing of Team Savage. People always avoid that issue when they talk about other rifles being better. I wonder why that is?

Because "Team Savage" would most likely do just as well if they were called Team Accuracy International, Team Sako or Team Remington. If you know anything about long range shooting, and specifically competitive long range shooting, there's so much more to it than just the rifle. Any rifle/load capable of shooting 1/2 MOA consistently under ideal conditions is good enough ... the rest is up to the shooter, the coach and to some extent luck. But Savage doesn't want you to know that.

As for the Savage 12 F/TR, why wouldn't it be good for F-Class out to 1,000 yards. It has a 30" barrel, weighs almost 13lb and is purpose built for F-TR. But that's the point, it's purpose built for a specific task, and regardless of the "Team Savage" hype, I don't want one.
 
Honestly, if you are serious about shooting 1,000...why settle on the 308? Sure it will get you out there, but there are calibers that will do the same thing with less recoil and a smaller bullet. Take a look at the 6.5x47 Lapua, 6.5 Creedmoor, .260...etc etc...do a google...Zak Smith has an excellent article on his site.
http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-shootout-260-6.5x47-6.5-creedmoor/

I also find it funny that you have an AI on the list along with a Savage...not saying that Savages aren't great rifles, but comparing AI build to Savage quality just isn't the same thing.

If you are alright with spending $7k on the rig...why not look at APA or GAP?

I've owned the 5R...not sure why some folks on the net act as if this rifle is some magical instrument of death...it's a decent factory rifle, but my Savage with the Shilen barrel has out shot the 5R.
 
Thanks again for all of your input. Amazing how much info you can get when you ask. I really want an ai. I really want to believe I can shoot 1000yds. I really want to justify spending the money. I live on 100 acres and the longest open path is 250 yds.
Thank you tonyangel for your perspective.
 
i'm not entirely sure why, but there are often several AIs on the line shooting F-T/R and they are never really competitive.

F-class is sort of... i don't know. I just can't get into it that much. I don't really want to shoot a 308, and if you shoot anything better, you're shooting against bona fide benchrest rifles. Not really a happy median. I still shot prone in the four 1000 yrd matches I shot last year. Thinking about switching this year though.
 
Some of these Savage guys still believe in the tooth fairy.

What do you mean by this?

I keep seeing people recommending anything other than a Savage for long range shooting and I am wondering why? Is this some kind of a "good ole boy" thing? That is all I am getting out of it myself.

What is it that people have against the Savage rifles? Is it that they aren't as pretty or ego boosting as a $10k+ rifle? Are you saying that Team Savage is lying or that Savage is lying about their rifles? Is there any good argument against a Savage F/TR rifle? All the accuracy reports I have seen from people who own them claim them to be superb.
 
The AIAW is a very nice rifle, and is easily the best of those listed IMO. The AE is also a good gun, as is the Sako TRG (which is greatly underestimated IMO), but personally I like the Desert Tactical Arms SRS better than any of the above (to include the AIAW). It has a nice compact package and is set up similarly to a benchrest tube gun (but lighter and more reliable) in that the bbl'd action is in line with the stock. It is also extremely accurate (I attribute that to the excellent Krieger bbl that they use) and affords easy barrel changes/chambering conversions if so desired. The trigger is excellent (as one would expect from a rifle of this caliber) despite the fact that it is a bullpup configuration. The bolt is also easily worked when shooting in the prone position, perhaps even easier than the average bolt rifle, and is not difficult to operate from the bench (though a standard configuration wins here). The magazine is also of note, it is designed with a shoulder retention feature and is very long to accommodate heavy bullets loaded long without hitting the front of the mag. I have been very satisfied with mine (chambered in .300WM; pictured below).

That said, I already have a second LRPR (for shorter engagements using less costly ammunition) and plan to use a GAP Templar action with a Schneider/Pac-Nor polygonal bbl (chambered for .260AI) in a JAE-700SA stock & Jewell Bottom Safety Trigger. Needless to say, it isn't likely to cost much less by the time all is said and done...I just want something a little different and a bit less costly to shoot.

As far as optics, the two you mention are good scopes but the Premier Reticles Heritage is the best deal for the money IMO. If you are set on a USO or NF, the former affords a bit better glass quality and would be my choice.

:)
 

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I keep seeing people recommending anything other than a Savage for long range shooting and I am wondering why? Is this some kind of a "good ole boy" thing? That is all I am getting out of it myself.

In my post I put Savage on the bottom of the list because of actual experience. By that I mean I actually get out and shoot a vast array of rifles.
[edited by taliv] Has he got behind and shot an AI AW, Sako TRG, Rem 5R etc? I am guessing of course not.
I report on what works for me and from real experinces just as some others have here.

1858 said:
If you know anything about long range shooting, and specifically competitive long range shooting, there's so much more to it than just the rifle.
There is??? didnt see that on the internets:rolleyes:


Here's one I could certainly get rid of, had high hopes but the Sako, Rem and FN's out shoot it, heck even my 10fp does too. Jeff Pm for a price.:D Savage 12 F/TR 308 Win

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I have seen and researched many threads on here regarding long range guns.
I am wanting to get into long range shooting and I have picked out several options. I have chosen .308 and plan to shoot up to 1000yds. The problem is that none of my local gun shops have any of these for me to touch and feel. I have a list of the guns I like below. Budget will be part of the equation but it is not the deciding factor. Any input you have would be appreciated.

Choices:
1. Accuracy International
2. Sig Blaser
3. Savage 10BA
4. Remington 5R
5. Sako TRG22

Glass will be US Optics or Night Force

My man ... what you need is a Savage 10FP or Remington 700 Varmint, a Bushnell 10X fixed scope, a mountain of ammo, and hours upon hours of time behind the trigger with an experienced eye watching over you.

You are putting the cart so far in front of the horse I don't know where to begin.
 
wecklish, think baby steps. I'm the obsessive/compulsive type and when I take an interest in something new, I want it all NOW. I've been shooting for as long as I can remember, but shooting long range is unlike any other type of shooting that I've done.

Hitting targets consistently at longer ranges (especially small targets of half MOA or so) is the product of sort of a symphony. You have to get a few different variables working in concert to accomplish you task. The most important of those variables is you.

The point I'm trying to get to is that trigger time will trump all. An excellent shot with a $500 rifle will whip the snot out of a lesser shooter no matter how expensive his rifle is. Like I said, I don't know what you finances will allow, but you must allow for more than the rifle, which is why I suggested the route above. Everyone I know that shoots long range hand loads their ammo. If you aren't already do it, you need to. If you are already doing it, it's still going to cost money to practice and practice is key.

Match grade .308 projectiles start at around $120 for 500 rounds and you haven't even started thinking about all of the other costs involved, not to mention your time.

My only point is that you should allow for "support" supplies in your budget. Having a $7K rifle and not being able to feed it what it likes would really suck. Even if you could afford to feed it Federal Gold Medal Match all day long, you're likely not getting the full potential without hand loading.
 
I don't know about all the guns on the list but I have a Remington 5r in 308 and it is SUPERBLY accurate! Well, at least for me. I'll add some pictures of recent groups.

My rig:
Stock 5r (no trigger or stock upgrade)
Nikon Buckmasters 6-18x40 mildot (sorry, I'm one of those rich school teachers everyone is bashing and blaming for wrecking the economy lately and can't afford a nightforce)
Leopold long range one piece base(adds 15 MOA) and standard leopold rings
$35 Caldwell 6"-9" pivoting bipod from academy.

1st pic is 5 shots at 100 yards. Does this ALL DAY LONG!!

2nd is 4 shots at 550 yards. This was the 1st time I shot at 550 with this gun. I have had solid 3" groups the other 2 times I shot at 550 but just don't have a pic. I had one flyer that I knew I pulled after the shot in the pic below.

I have had quite a few .75"- 1" 200 yard groups but guess I deleted the pic of my iPhone.

My load is 45.1 grains of varget in a lee collet neck sized Lapua case sparked by a Winchester primer shooting a 168 grain Nosler CC seated with a Redding Competition seater to 2.82" @ 2712 fps.
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Jeff56 said:
You can put down Savage all you want. My guess is that you have spent a lot more on another gun and you can't bring yourself to think you could have saved a bunch of that money.

I'm not putting Savage down. They offer a rifle that is too specific for my taste ... it's that simple. The FT/R is built for F-Class and not much else. If F-Class is all you want to do then sure, buy an FT/R. But for general use, there are much better choices that are either fully evolved or have growth potential. And yes, I have three custom rifles the I use in F-Class but they also make excellent practical shooting rifles too. I'd rather build a $3,000 custom rifle suited to my specific needs (or buy an AI AE) rather than buy an FT/R.

My point re the hype is that Savage is in the business of selling rifles. Team Savage is heavily funded by Savage and Nightforce as a marketing tool. The members of the US F-Class team have been successful F-Class shooters before they started using the FT/R in March of '07. The way Savage spins it, their success is simply due to the fact that some of them use Savage rifles. My point is that they'd be successful using any number of quality rifles and world records would still fall even if the FT/R wasn't around.


Jeff56 said:
What I see in your post is that you don't want a Savage.

I own a Savage.
 
I agree with 1858 re: the Savage. They are good rifles, and tend to be very accurate, but there are better platforms for practical shooting...same goes for the Remington and i'd bet the farm the Blaser is in the same boat too (in stock form). Zak has a very informative video of these type of rifles failing in the field, yet the AIs and Sakos keep on shooting. I don't recall how well GAPs and Armalites did, but I bet they faired pretty good as well.

Additionally, if you shoot enough rounds to become proficient with it at long range, then the cost of cartridges and replacement barrels will be staggering. You might as well start off with a good platform to begin with.

All that having been said, the OP never did state the intended use, so this is all speculation...anything might suit his needs.

:)
 
To be honest I think the rifle I have will shoot 1000 yards accurately. I can shoot a 2" groups at a quarter mile with it. That's less than .5 MOA. It will spin 75 gr. bullets too so the wind becomes less of a factor.

Uh, spoken like a guy who has never shot at 1000 yards. Your 75gr .223 bullet may shoot well at 1/4 mile, but it will come up hopelessly short at 5/8 mile.

Don
 
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