Long-term safe powder storage ideas

[judaspriest]

How do people store sizable amounts of gun powder? My concerns are two-fold: safety and preservation.

I have read that as long as there are no serious temperature swings, powder stores quite well. In that case, what about storing tightly-sealed powder kegs in water-filled drums? The temperature swings would be fairly minimal and it would be fairly well insulated against external fire (as well as protecting outside from its own accidental ignition).

Any thoughts/ideas/tips?

Thanks

JP

 

[JCT]

If by "gun powder" you're referring to Black powder, then yes, it stores well. Indefinitely in fact. I've heard stories of people finding cans and kegs of 100+ year old BP, as good as the day it was made. If kept dry i'd think it would last forever. With Blackpowder, even if it get's wet, just dry it out and it's as good as new ( sometimes better! ).
Water filled drums is extreme and not needed. If that container is tightly sealed, nothing else is needed.
What you might get is a type 4 Magazine and line it with wood. This is BATF regulation specs for storing low order explosive, up to 50 pounds. The magazines can be found for under $200, are lockable and have wheels.
If you're certain the containers are air tight, then there's no risk of damage from humidity. Temperature changes do not effect Black Powder unless the BP is exposed and can draw moisture from the air.

 

[NuJudge]

There is only one powder I've had that has gone bad, even when properly stored: IMR 4198. It was stored in a cool basement, with De-Humidifier humming away nearby. Why, I have no idea.

CDD

 

[eliphalet]

There is only one powder I've had that has gone bad, even when properly stored: IMR 4198

Interesting, how long had it been stored? What were the symptoms of being bad, odor or?

Was involved in a divorce and hurriedly stored stuff in a unheated storage shed. Time moved along I was working out of state etc. That powder was exposed to the heat of 100 degree summers and the cold of several Idaho winters. Some containers had been opened some not. I'm still shooting with some if it. It is all working just fine after several years of that storage and now in the house several more. Powders included several IMR's including 4198, Unique, and other pistol powders. Shooting and chronographing it all is well.

 

[Grandpa Shooter]

Powder stored even minimally well will still be good. Even powder stored hastily will do well if it is not subjected to excessive and repeated heating and cooling. I have some that is 15 years old and still kicking.

The best idea I have considered and gotten positve feedback on is using a vacuum sealer to make it airtight and easily storable.

 

[judaspriest]

JCT, no, I meant the modern propellants.

Quality preservation is only one of the two concerns - safety is the other. I want to minimize the damages if there is a fire in the house as well as minimize the chances that the powder itself gets ignited somehow (hence my water storage idea). I would store it outside of the house, but then it would be subject to temperature changes (unless I bury it *really* deep, like 10 ft which isn't practical)...

 

[dmftoy1]

Well I guess you could get a halon system and . . . . .





I use an old bookcase (metalcase) that we got for $5 from my wife's work. It's got metal sliding doors on it and a lock (if I'm so inclined) but it's not built to be airtight and would come apart very easily if powder somehow got ignited. (The doors almost fall off when slide them) FWIW.

If I was building something I'd probably build an inexpensive cabinet out of thin plywood with a hasp lock. (that's what they store it in at the local gander mountain . . . .supposedly it is mandated by the local firecode)

In my case the temp is pretty consistent as it's stored in the basement and I use a de-humidifier to try to minimize humidty fluctation. (I try to maintain 45-50% humidty . .easy in the winter, tougher in the summer)

Just my .02

Have a good one,
Dave

 

[rcmodel]

In that case, what about storing tightly-sealed powder kegs in water-filled drums?

I can think of no worse way for storing powder then inside a water-filled drum.

Humidity would be way off the charts!


rcmodel

 

[judaspriest]

Of course - I would seal them up with suitable sealant first, so humidity isn't an issue

 

[c.latrans]

I have some H 4831 that has to be 25 years old, and I cant tell it from new powder. It has been stored in metal 1 pound cans inside of old military surplus ammo cans and kept inside the house for all of this time.

 

[evan price]

Unless you are talking hundreds of pounds of gunpowder, it in itself isn't even as dangerous as gasoline, paint thinner, etc. to store indoors. Elaborate precautions are not necessary. Keep it in the factory container, make sure it seals tightly, put it somewhere out of the light and where it won't get knocked off a high shelf to the floor & bust open, someplace where a human being would be comfortable with the temperatures, and you'll be just fine.

Liquids such as gasoline or thinner will evaporate and the vapor is more dangerous than the liquified fuel in terms of potential for explosion.
Gunpowder by comparison is relatively benign.

 

[strat81]

As evan price said, I'd be more concerned about any solvents you have inside the house. After putzing around outside with smokeless powder and a fire extinguisher close by, I've realized that the aerosol hairspray on my wife's dresser is more dangerous than the smokeless powder I deal with.

House fires can be dangerous for many reasons. Not only are there numerous combustibles inside (paint thinner, natural gas, bug spray, etc), you have the potential for ammo to cook off (minor danger), and, IMHO, the most serious is chance of noxious fumes from melting/burning plastic.

I'd worry more about having backups or duplicates of important documents stored offsite in a safe deposit box. Then get the secondary stuff in a fire-resistant safe.

 

[judaspriest]

Appreciate all the tips. However, I am still curious what people think of my initial idea. Let me re-phrase it as I was probably not clear enough the first time.

I get some highest quality water-tight caulk from, say, Home Depot. Use it to completely seal up the original manufacturer's smokeless powder containers by putting caulk on the threads under the cup. I can probably also wrap them up in plastic wrap (along with some silica gel). I then get an large outdoor-type garbage bin, fill it with water and submerge the powder cans and cover the lid.

My thinking is that the water-tight packaging would make the setup harmless to the powder. The water would smooth out any the temperature fluctuations to a great degree. And in the case of fire, it will take a lot longer for the powder to ignite as the water would have to leak / boil out first. This is not much of a hassle / extra cost and would seem to provide a lot of added value

Anyone seeing any obvious problems with this line of reasoning?

Thanks and regards,

JP

 

[karnaaj]

I think the reason nobody is responding to you idea is that it is extreme in its concept. Why do you feel the need to go thru that kind of process when it is not necessary? Do you have any knowledge at all of the properties of modern smokeless powder?

 

[Sommerled]

Interesting thought,

As a former submariner, almost everything eventually leaks when kept underwater for long periods. Besides, those ammo containers have a lot of air in them and would have to be held down. IMO just too much work for too little benefit.

 

[Sport45]

I would also worry about the solvents in the caulk affecting the powder.

The lids of powder containers are designed to pop off at a low pressure. Do you think glueing it on is a good idea? Speaking of glue, how do you intend to open them when you want to use the powder?

 

[MMCSRET]

In my part of the world the relative humidity is quite low and I use an old refrigerator with a good gasket on the door and the reefer unit removed. Good insulation from the inside and out. Welders use them to store their fluxed rod in as the flux degrades with temperature and humidity changes.

 

[brickeyee]

Caulk is not a hermetic seal and moisture will penetrate.
Even submarines have bilge pumps.

 

[ranger335v]

As a former SCUBA diver, I can assure you that very little in this world is 'water proof", water resistant is as good as we can hope to get in most cases. My old "dry suit" isn't dry, it's actually more like a "damp suit!"

And, as mentioned, all that wouldn't do you a lot of good anyway, it's simply not needed. I still have a little left from a 50 lb. keg of WWII surplus 4831 that I purchased in '65 and it works fine. It has been stored in used powder cans sitting in my unheated garage, how much longer might anyone want to store it?

Temp swings, as such, do not harm powder nor do extremly cold temps. What does harm it, or any other organic chemistry, is high heat simply because heat accellerates the normal decomposition. Therefore, keeping powder as cool as possible, even to the point of freezing temps, actually extends its life. Store it in an attic in the summer and it will degrade pretty fast. Stored in more moderate temps, anything a human can stand for extended periods such as in my garage, and it will last a LOONG time!

 

[schloe]

complete waste of time

 

[Conqueror]

Anyone seeing any obvious problems with this line of reasoning?

Would it work? Maybe. But you're dealing in needless hypotheticals here. In this fantasy world, you might also weld up an airtight titanium vault, line it with aerogel insulation and dessicant, put your powder in it, and then seal it and flood it with argon gas. That, too, would keep your powder very safe. But it's totally unnecessary. If powder will keep just fine for 50+ years in a plastic bottle on a shelf, why caulk it shut and float it in water?

 

[USSR]

You're overthinking this. Put the powder in your basement up off the floor and forget about it.

Don

 

[ftierson]

The best (and safest) way to store smokeless powder is to buy some cartridge cases and bullets and to store the powder inside the cartridge cases in loaded rounds.

Less work is involved when you finally decide to shoot them, too...



Forrest

 

[MutinousDoug]

I posted this on a similar thread about a year ago. It applies to weather induced temperature cycling propellants:
I worked for 20 some years in engineering for an aerospace ordnance company that specialized in pyrotechnic devices for military aircraft and space vehicles. Some of these used common reloading powders such as Bullseye or Unique as gas generants for piston driven, single use devices, for instance; pin pullers and latch operators in escape or ordnance arming systems.
Commonly these devices had a 5 year operational (on aircraft) or 10 year shelf life after which these would be returned to us for refurbishment or disposal. Upon return, we would perform “lot verification” tests on approximately 10% by firing these at the extremes of their operational environment (normally -60f to 140f IIRC) and this data compared to the data collected when the devices were originally qualified. Then, to refurbish the remainder, the original lot of propellant was used if possible as a replacement. Using the original propellant lot allowed us to use a smaller acceptance test group and abbreviated test regimen-PROVIDED: no statistically significant difference in performance was exhibited in any of our test samples; original, return or refurbished.
I know of no case where we witnessed a change in performance due to propellant degradation. When deployed, these devices (and aircraft) were subject to conditions that ranged from the Sandbox to the Yukon. Our replacement propellant was stored in their original containers in un-insulated steel magazines about the size of a conex box or semi trailer, painted dark red. These were placed on the back of the company property here on the Colorado prairie. Not an extreme environment but -10 f to -20 f in the winter and 90f to 100f in the summer. The inside of these magazines were like an oven in the summertime. The propellants cycled through these extremes for 10-20 years with no measured ill effect.

 

[Encoreman]

I like Forrest idea the best, place that powder in measured quantities inside brass cases and plug end with bullet of your choice. Duh Huh!!