Looks llike the 5th Circuit is as wacky as the 9th...

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onerifle

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Grrrrr... :fire:

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2469360

Court: Evidence OK in some no-warrant searches
Associated Press

NEW ORLEANS -- A federal appeals court has opened the door for police officers in Texas and two other states to search homes and buildings for evidence without a warrant -- a ruling that two dissenting judges called "the road to hell."

Acting on a Baton Rouge case, the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that police do not need an arrest or search warrant to conduct a swift sweep of private property to ensure their own safety.

Any evidence discovered during that search now is admissible in court as long as the search is a "cursory inspection," and if police entered the site for a legitimate law enforcement purpose and believed it may be dangerous.

The 11-4 ruling affects Louisiana, Texas and Mississippi and replaces a standard set in 1994, when the 5th Circuit held that police can make a so-called protective sweep only if officers are there to arrest someone.

In the majority opinion, Judge William Lockhart Garwood wrote that any in-home encounter poses a risk to police officers, even if it is simply to interview someone.

The opinion noted that a similar standard has been adopted by four other federal circuit courts of appeals.

The decision came in the case of Kelly Donald Gould, a Denham Springs man who was arrested in October 2000 on federal gun charges after allegedly threatening to kill unidentified judges and police officers.

Deputies went to Gould's trailer with no search or arrest warrant, but were invited into the trailer by another resident, who told them Gould was asleep in the bedroom.

Because of the threats and Gould's criminal history, the deputies said they looked for him under the bed and in two closets, where they found three rifles. They later found Gould hiding in the woods and seized the weapons after they got him to sign a permission for the search.

U.S. District Judge James Brady ruled that the guns could not be used as evidence because they were obtained illegally. A three-judge panel of the 5th Circuit upheld that decision, but encouraged prosecutors to request a hearing before the court to reconsider the legal precedent on which it was based.

Dissenting justices argued the ruling creates another exception to constitutional protections against unlawful search and seizure.

"I have no doubt that the deputy sheriffs believed they were acting reasonably and with good intentions," Judges Harold DeMoss Jr. and Carl E. Stewart wrote. "But the old adage warns us that 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions.'"

U.S. Attorney David Dugas of Baton Rouge said the case illustrates the "difficult situations" law-enforcement officers often face.

"They're expected to make split-second decisions in potentially dangerous situations involving constitutional issues that the courts and legal scholars can spend years debating," Dugas said.

But Mike Walsh, a defense attorney, said the 5th Circuit decision "grossly expands" the definition of lawful searches and erodes everyone's constitutional rights "to be free from intrusive and unlawful searches."
 
So this means that if your nosy neighbor.. hears a loud argument coming from your house (perhaps you're watching a move turned up loud) and calls the police saying there's a domestic disturbance...

Now the police can come in and do a 'cursory search for their safety' as they are there on legitimate business.



:banghead:
 
What's this mean?

It means that the gun safes belong behind some camoflage.

I guess we DO have to "bury" the guns. Or at least keep them out of sight from "cursory inspection".
 
I really do not see this as any kind of expansion of cases on the books, although it did deal with a different factual situation than the one that already was decided by the U.S. Supreme Court, and the Fifth Circuit did distinguish a prior opinion of the Fifth Circuit to the contrary. It does not open the door to a parade of horribles

So this means that if your nosy neighbor.. hears a loud argument coming from your house (perhaps you're watching a move turned up loud) and calls the police saying there's a domestic disturbance...

The rest of the article (and the case) dispells this analysis.

Deputies went to Gould's trailer with no search or arrest warrant, but were invited into the trailer by another resident, who told them Gould was asleep in the bedroom.

In other words, someone with authority over the residence voluntarily allowed the police to enter, thereby giving them lawful authority to be on the premises. The suspect had made death threats against judges, and the police were going to question him, but not necessarily arrest him. After being invited into the residence, the police went down the hall. The bedroom door was open and the police looked but did not see the suspect in the bedroom. The police then did a sweep of the bedroom looking for the suspect, and saw the rifles in question pursuant to the sweep. The court thought that the sweep was reasonable under those circumstances and that the police limited the sweep in scope and duration

I would say that the moral of this story is not so much to camoflage your guns as it is to choose your roommates wisely.
 
Opening safes ought not to be part of a "swift sweep". I don't think this is much of a change from the traditional "plain view" doctrine. If a cop is let into your home, anything in plain view can be used to arrest you or to secure a warrant.
 
Make no mistake - this decision represents a MAJOR expansion of police power.
"Plain view" means just that - the evidence must be out and available to the naked eye, without a search. Exactly what is meant by a "cursory inspection" isn't yet known, but I have no doubt that a judge will permit looking under furniture, looking in closets, opening unlocked doors or containers (perhaps even locked ones, if they are close at hand) - there is really no limit to the expansion that could be allowed. This essentialy removes the requirement for a warrant supported by probable cause.

If this decision is expanded to include cars, then you would be subject to a search of your car any time you were pulled over, for any reason.

This needs to go to the USSC, and it needs to be overturned post haste. This is terrible law.

- Chris
 
I don't see the problem. Perhaps I'm just naive, but unless your growing pot plants or have grenades laying around on the coffee table what's the fear?:confused:
 
Although the protective sweep existed and was recognized prior to 1990, it clearly was authorized by the U.S. Supreme Court in Maryland v. Buie, 110 S.Ct. 1093 (1990). The U.S. Supreme Court only deals with the facts before it, and it's up to the lawyers, cops and courts to figure out what it means in different situations. Buie involved a sweep incident to an arrest warrant. Gould involved a sweep incident to a consensual entry directed to a particular individual, where the police knew the suspect was in the residence and believed that he had made death threats. I do not see it as any stretch whatsoever.

The purpose of the sweep is to prevent the road back from hell being paved with brass casings. It is not to go on a fishing expedition. It is no fun looking for a bad guy and having him pop up behind you after you bypass his hiding place. I can tell you that from personal experience. The sweep recognized by the case law is limited to places that the bad guy can hide. If you find obvious contraband or evidence in such a place, it is considered to be in plain view. In this particular case, the cops had been told that someone was in the residence, who the police believed was a suspect in threatening judges. When he wasn't where he was supposed to be, it was only logical to believe that the person had secreted himself and was a potential threat to the police.

The Fourth Amendment does not prevent searches and seizures. It prohibits UNREASONABLE searches and seizures. It doesn't even literally require that a warrant be obtained for either; it only specifies the standard for obtaining a warrant. The courts have been filling in the details ever since the 4th amendment was adopted. The 5th Circuit believed that it was reasonable under the circumstances for the warrantless sweep. YMMV.
 
I don't see the problem. Perhaps I'm just naive, but unless your growing pot plants or have grenades laying around on the coffee table what's the fear?
You are, indeed, being naive. Although in a perfect system there would be no particular reason to fear the expansion of police search powers, the system we have is very much imperfect. The potential for abuse under this decision is staggering, especally if one has political views outside the mainstream.

The purpose of the sweep is to prevent the road back from hell being paved with brass casings. It is not to go on a fishing expedition.
Certainly a noble sentiment, but can you honestly tell me that fishing expeditions will not be justified under the 5th's ruling?

The Fourth Amendment does not prevent searches and seizures. It prohibits UNREASONABLE searches and seizures.
An unfortunate oversight in the constitution, IMO. The 4th Amendment should be treated as if the word "unreasonable" did not appear in it.

- Chris
 
On target there, Chris.

There's nothing reasonable about cops without a warrant putting themselves in such danger that justifies a cursory search ostensibly for their own safety.

That first quote was naive in spades, confusing your constitutional rights with what specific articles you personally have that might be incriminating under today's law.
 
Here's the problem: it violates my 4th amendment rights against unreasonable search and seizure. I bought a house instead of renting because I value--no, TREASURE--my privacy. This is unconstitutional. Let's write some letters to the judge!
 
It's already being abused....CHILLING!

The article doesn't say this is the result of the ruling, but I am going to assume that it is.


EITHER this is a bit of CRAP reporting

OR

The State of Lousiana has decided that as a result of it

"Police officers in Louisiana no longer need a search or arrest warrant to conduct a brief search of your home or business."





http://www.theneworleanschannel.com/news/2953483/detail.html




-------------------
Court Opens Door To Searches Without Warrants

POSTED: 3:55 pm CST March 26, 2004
UPDATED: 4:36 pm CST March 26, 2004
NEW ORLEANS -- It's a groundbreaking court decision that legal experts say will affect everyone: Police officers in Louisiana no longer need a search or arrest warrant to conduct a brief search of your home or business.

Leaders in law enforcement say it will provide safety to officers, but others argue it's a privilege that could be abused.

The decision was made by the New Orleans-based 5th Circuit Court of Appeals. Two dissenting judges called it the "road to Hell."

The ruiling stems from a lawsuit filed in Denham Springs in 2000.

New Orleans Police Department spokesman Capt. Marlon Defillo said the new power will go into effect immediately and won't be abused.

"We have to have a legitimate problem to be there in the first place, and if we don't, we can't conduct the search," Defillo said.

But former U.S. Attorney Julian Murray has big problems with the ruling.

"I think it goes way too far," Murray said, noting that the searches can be performed if an officer fears for his safety -- a subjective condition.

Defillo said he doesn't envision any problems in New Orleans, but if there are, they will be handled.

"There are checks and balances to make sure the criminal justce system works in an effective manor," Defillo said.
-------------------
 
All the bad JBT's are out partying tonight because of this. :what:


Now all an officer has to do is say "I was concerned for my saftey".
This is ruling is BS. One more mile marker down towards the Police State. When, when will we wake up and fight back?:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
 
So...are you guys saying that if a LEO gets called to a Domestic Violence situation and he is invited in by the wife...he has no ability to look for the husband who may very well be in the back loading up the shotgun? That is just silly. A protective sweep is a million miles from a search and anybody that has been in a house that was searched will gladly tell you about the difference (Cleanup). A protective sweep takes a few seconds and prevents the OH @#$% followed by dead cops when the suspect pops out of a bedroom with a glock. This is old news, protective sweeps have been ruled constitutional by the USSC several times because you are only looking for people, not evidence of a crime.
 
I don't see the problem. Perhaps I'm just naive, but unless your growing pot plants or have grenades laying around on the coffee table what's the fear?
So if you have an aftermarket blank videotape laying on the coffee table and they pop it into the VCR and there, lo and behold, is a copy of "The Price Is Right". Video Piracy. They have you.

They walk into the garage and they see a roll of copper wire, a lantern battery, and some water pipe. Must be bomb making materials. They have you.

They look in the storage shed and see a can of gasoline, some empty Coca-Cola bottles, and a Bernzo-Matic torch. Must be arsonist tools. They have you.

Trust me. They can find anything they want to in a "cursory search".
 
An unfortunate oversight in the constitution, IMO. The 4th Amendment should be treated as if the word "unreasonable" did not appear in it.

This kind of thinking is more dangerous than any court ruling, because the writer is suggesting that we should snip words out of the constitution to make it fit our whims. Aren't 90% of the political threads on this board complaints about how the liberals are trying to do this very thing to the 2nd amendment?
I also find it laughable that police doing a sweep of a residence to guard against dangerous individuals would "pop a tape into a vcr" while sweeping for dangerous people. The sweep is not done to make sure there is no illegal contraband, it is done to check for other people. The police are only looking in spaces large enough to conceal a person, i.e. the laundry room, a closet, under the bed, etc. Illegal items such as drugs are usually hidden in much smaller places like the underwear drawer, where police would not be looking without consent.
 
Stickman

I also find it laughable that police doing a sweep of a residence to guard against dangerous individuals would "pop a tape into a vcr" while sweeping for dangerous people. The sweep is not done to make sure there is no illegal contraband, it is done to check for other people. The police are only looking in spaces large enough to conceal a person, i.e. the laundry room, a closet, under the bed, etc. Illegal items such as drugs are usually hidden in much smaller places like the underwear drawer, where police would not be looking without consent.
You forget that every law will always be taken to its furthest and wildest extreme.

Abortion was only supposed to occur in the first sixteen weeks when it was "passed". Look where it has gone from there.

The R.I.C.O. statutes were supposed to be used against mobsters but it wasn't long before they were confiscating abortion protester's cars under the R.I.C.O. statutes.

The Seizure and Forfeiture laws were supposed to be used against drug "kingpins" to take their "mansions, yachts, and fancy cars". It wasn't long before they were taking the homes of little old ladies, the cars of Johns soliciting prostitutes, the cars of people lawfully carrying a firearm in their car, and the cars of people drinking a beer in their own driveway listening to the car stereo.

If you think that this ruling will not be abused, you are naive.

The cops are not always as honorable as we wish.

In "The Development of the American Police: An Historical Overview", Craig Uchida notes that "If there is a common theme that can be used to characterize the police in the 19th Century, it is the large-scale corruption that occurred in most police departments across the United States" (Uchida, 1993).

In "Forces of Deviance: Understanding the Dark Side of Policing", Kappeler, Sluder, and Alpert point out that corruption among police is not new or peculiar to the late 20th century. "To study the history of police is to study police deviance, corruption and misconduct." (Kappeler et al., 1994.)

These are the same police that kicked in the wrong door and caused a 70 year old minister to have a heart attack and die;

Who raided the wrong house based on a tip by a desperate druggie and blinded for life the homeowner when they threw a flashbang grenade in his face;

That caused the deaths of 20 children at Waco, TX for their own protection;

That shot a mother holding a 10 month old baby after the rules of engagement were illegally changed;

That have regularly shaken down black motorists on Hwy. 95 in Florida;

That went on a drunken rampage in Los Angeles firing their weapons at signs, street lights, and a California Highway Patrolman;

That broke into the home of Donald Scott in Malibu, CA and shot him to death in a botched seizure raid that netted nothing but the death of Mr. Scott;

That fled from the scene of the Los Angeles riots leaving the people to fend for themselves with privately held firearms;

Who played a starring role in the corruption investigations of the Knapp, Mollen, and Christopher Commissions;

That have been turned into bounty hunters by the seizure and forfeiture laws;

That have had seizure funds projected into their budgets so moneys can be supplanted elsewhere thereby forcing officers to seek out the funds through even more seizures to make up the shortfall;

The type of police who testified in the Whitey Bulger and Stephen Flemmi trial in Boston who took gifts and payoffs and allowed murders and other criminal activities to occur and go unpunished.

Sorry to sound offensive or snide; but you really need to get a clue on reality.
 
"Sorry to sound offensive or snide; but you really need to get a clue on reality"

That goes both ways.
 
I don't know if this will matter but if the police knock on your front door and your front door has a screen door in front of it and you open the main door, the police are considered outside. If your front door does not have a screen door, the police are considered as being inside by a tacit invitation, and can enter.
 
FedDC -

This is old news, protective sweeps have been ruled constitutional by the USSC several times because you are only looking for people, not evidence of a crime.
If this is really the case, then you should have no problem with any evidence of a secondary crime being specifically excluded if it is turned up during a "protective sweep." The 5th Circut Court ruled that such evidence can be admitted, thus opening the door to wholesale abuse of the protective sweep system.

Stickman -

This kind of thinking is more dangerous than any court ruling, because the writer is suggesting that we should snip words out of the constitution to make it fit our whims.
Pretty much right, although I take exception to your using the word "whims." Making the constitution more compatable with freedom is hardly a whim. I don't worship at the altar of the constitution. That's a debate for another thread, though.

The sweep is not done to make sure there is no illegal contraband, it is done to check for other people.
Fair enough, then you also should have no problem with disallowing evidence seized during a warrantless "protective sweep."

- Chris
 
I think the police knew that they were beyond the rules.

QUOTE
"Because of the threats and Gould's criminal history, the deputies said they looked for him under the bed and in two closets, where they found three rifles. They later found Gould hiding in the woods and seized the weapons after they got him to sign a permission for the search. "

He signed a permission for a search? He should have refused.

I do not like the intent of this ruling, but I do not think this was the case to use to decide it.

I wonder what "federal gun charges" he was arrested for violating?:confused:
 
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