Lorcin, Byrco and family

[Shade00]

If I return from the gun show tomorrow AM with a ROF gun, I will be sure to post here.

It's unlikely that I will, though, as the wifey has recently started to show that she really wants a revolver (ever since putting 50 rounds through my S&W M32). Anyway, if I manage to find one of these puppies for around $50 (as opposed to $80), I might pick it up as a toy. Otherwise, I'll just be cruising for real guns...

 

[Sturmgewher]

Sure. You can cut any normal ordnance steel with a good knife. I've even used a knife blade to scrape the lower barrel lug to a final fit on 1911 pistols.

No, you haven't. Not if it was true "ordinance steel". Most kniives run about the same HRC rating as a gun, and elemntary metal working knowledge will tell you that you cannot cut steel with anything that isn't harder than the steel being cut. Barrel bushings, incedently aren't made of the same material as the frame or slide of the weapon.

 

[theotherwaldo]

I have literally lost count of the number of Lorcins, Ravens, Jennings, and Brycos that I've found over the years. Most were loaded (if intact), but only three worked when found. Those three were lost in a couch, a La-Z-Boy, and a car seat.

The rest had broken firing pins or damaged clips. The firing pins are easily duplicated on a Unimat mini-lathe. Once repaired, I usually returned them to their natural habitat - the local pawn shop.
With a steel firing pin and a proper clip, these little guns would serve their purpose adequately - as an emergency defense device .

 

[Funderb]

I drive this (it's in 1 piece now) "piece of crap" because I like to, and I know mine will work, when others fail. It is probably worth $300 as a car, but you know what, it has probably been working better, and longer than your $21,000 car.




I built this for $50 because I can't afford a gunsmith's ungodly prices for work.






Oh yeah, an I shoot a bryco 380, after 500rds it's not broken, and it stovepiped twice.


Point being, you don't have to pay a kings ransom for something that is functional. There is no call to impress here.
Don't crap all over something if you haven't touched it first, or tried it first.
My bryco works, others fail, it may one day fail, but it sure as hell was enjoyed while it lasted!


but mainly- don't crap on 300 dollar cars because it offends me and the boogeyman will get you in your sleep.

 

[Robert Hairless]

because it offends me and i will get you in your sleep.

Not funny and most unwise.

 

[Funderb]

there, are you freaking happy, mr high-tension?

 

[1911Tuner]

No, you haven't...

Busted! Sturmgewher...you've found me out. I'm a pathological liar.

Whew! Sure glad I got that off my chest.

Tell ya what, sport. Take the tip of a good knife blade and rake it across one of your gun barrels or receivers...in the cutting direction...and lemme know what happens. Ai'ght?

elemntary metal working knowledge

15 years as a machinist/toolmaker and 44 years wrenchin' on 1911 pistols qualify?

Just...FYI:

Ordnance steel is pretty soft. Even after hardening, it doesn't usually hit more than about 38-44 Rc...depending on what you're hardening. Barrels are normally left a little softer than receivers and slides. Unless you've been buyin' knives off the 2-dollar board at the local flea market, you'll find that you can cut ordnance steel with a knife pretty easily.

 

[HB]

Nice

That pretty awesome...
I'm surprised Bryco/Jennings doesn't offer them like that from the factory or their custom shop

HB

 

[Funderb]

the slides are made of zinc, and yes you can, and I have cut mine with a knife to remove burrs. It dulls the knife, but it works. I don't seem to mind though. what convenience!

 

[JohnBT]

I don't doubt a knife will cut gun steel. I want to know if a knife will shave a RoF gun. You know, make a nice long curl like you're planing wood. Maybe I'll keep an eye out for a broken one and take my $2 Pakistani inox folder to it. If that doesn't work I'll try a Sebenza.

As far as the 6,000 guns a day, the quote says "up to 6000" and I don't know if that included all of Bryco's guns or if the Jennings etc. lines were counted elsewhere. Maybe they poured pot metal Mon. through Wed. and only slapped 'em together on Thur. and Fri.

Anybody ever met a Ring of Fire factory gunsmith?

John

 

[sm]

Anybody ever met a Ring of Fire factory gunsmith?

I cannot say for sure if the folks that did some gun work applied for work as a ROF factory gunsmith or not, but they had the skills sets and some even had certificates that would enhance resumes.

Three Mill Bastard File Academy
Dremel Online Gun Fixing School
Hacksaw & Cyl Hone Shotgun Services

 

[saturno_v]

These "things" (calling them guns is an offence to proper firearms) are not even worth to be discussed about. Dangerous contraptions, no customer service, EXTREMELY poor constructions, inexistent accuracy. You would be better off with a quality knife...seriously....
If you are really on a budget, for few dollars more you can buy an Hi-Point. Bulky, heavy, ugly as sin but light years ahead in terms of quality, accuracy, reliability and customer service.

 

[mbt2001]

These "things" (calling them guns is an offence to proper firearms) are not even worth to be discussed about. Dangerous contraptions, no customer service, EXTREMELY poor constructions, inexistent accuracy. You would be better off with a quality knife...seriously....
If you are really on a budget, for few dollars more you can buy an Hi-Point. Bulky, heavy, ugly as sin but light years ahead in terms of quality, accuracy, reliability and customer service.

Many of your comments are blatantly false others are grossly misinformed and tactically dangerous.

Regarding the guns, send me all of your Bryco, Jennings, etc... I would be happy to have them.

 

[Z71]

I would concur that the Hi-Points are the better buy for a cheap handgun.

Not sure of the Bryco lineage, but I've had a couple guys bring me Bryco .380's to get working, and they are truely a crap shoot! One fellow bought two, one for his wife and one for himself. One worked and the other wouldn't automate worth a hoot!

People rag on them because they are pretty poor excuses for handguns.

The Raven .25 is a bit better gun in my experience, but nothing to write home about.

I've also had fair luck with the Jennings J-22 pistols. Can usually find something that will function in it.

But those poor Bryco's! Them jokers had the factory personel that were more qualified to flip burgers than build guns! Might be a servicable arm if they had any QC at all.

I do think they just pump out pistols hoping the majority will function, and the rest won't come back for warranty work!

The Hi-Point has a reputation for working, and it's relatively cheap. The Bryco has a reputation as scrap metal, and is slightly cheaper. Take your pick!

The cheesiest handgun I have is a Norinco 213 9mm. It actually works, but I think I paid about $110 for it new, and it's steel.

I suppose a inexpensive handgun has it's purposes. But I would just prefer to spend $200-300 more and get something better than a Bryco!

When a guy can buy a used Walther P1/P38 for $250-$300, why waste 1/3 that money for a pot metal Jam-O-Matic!

Lots of options used and new for a quality handgun. Quality is a word I've never heard used in a positive way towards the aforementioned zinc pistols.

Buying a Bryco or it's legaly inspired other makes/trademarked pistols is akin to purchasing the absolute cheapest tire available for your Corvette! Hopefully it's only your life thats imperiled!

Good grief folks! Buy a quality firearm! Costs more sure, but hopefully your worth it!

 

[Sturmgewher]

Hey Tuner, scratching ain't cutting. Tell ya what, cut 1/16" off a quality pistol slide and I'll eat my hat.

 

[Sturmgewher]

Oh, by the way. 38-44 HRC?!?!? C'mon! Would you trust a pistol that is softer than the average axe or chisel? The FIRST round fired, assuming the resulting preasure didn't spontaneously disassemble the barrel, would result in extensive structural damage to the "ordinance steel" and resize the breech. Alloys used in barrel making have to be hard as well as tough (i.e. not so rigid they shatter under pressure). Anyone could make a barrel out of O1 and harden above 50HRC but the resulting piece would be brittle and unable to withstand shock loads. Say the shock load of 22,000 psi in a gun breech. And so you'll know, 4130 at 52-55 HRC is the safe range for gun steel which is about the same as quality knife blades. You could scratch 'em, but not cut 'em.

 

[saturno_v]

mbt2001

I'm sorry man but no amount of admiration and unconditionate love you seem to have for the "Jammings", "Breako" and other such masterpieces of the firearms industry will change the fact that these "things" ( I reiterate that calling them guns is too much) are pure crap. Period, Full Stop.

I saw so many cash strapped kids arriving at the range and trying their Cheapomatic, jams of every possible kind, could not hit almost anything, broken ejectors, firing pins, springs, and one brand new, I believe is called Ja-Nine, broke the slide!!!

Did I ever shot them?? Gosh no and I do not intend too...I heard mostly only horrible things about them and the few I saw shooting fully confirmed the bad reputation....

Am I a gun snob??? Hell no and no...I trust my life to my Bersa Thunder 40 which is not exactly an expensive gun, I just bought a Kel-Tec, I suggested more than once to people on very tight budget to get an Hi-Point as a nightstand drawer gun, yes they are reliable, they work, they are strong and reasonably accurate...despite the price I consider them decent quality firearms and earned my respect at the range...they are cheap because so many other shortcomings (size, balance, primitive SA and iffy safety) but they shoot in the right direction when you need them to and do not jam.

There is a big difference between inexpensive guns and low quality guns like any other items in this world

Funderb you posted two pics of inexpensive items... despite the fact that they do not cost much, these two things (the VW and the Mauser) work very well and the Mauser K98 is a war tested rifle..the fact that you can get one for little more than 100 dollars does not change the fact that it is actually a high quality gun and extremely accurate and reliable if properly mantained...

I would trust my life against a Grizzly charge to my $79 Mosin Nagant....is dead accurate,, tougher than any other rifle I ever seen, reliability is in its genetic code and very powerful...

The US Army trusts the Mossberg 500 and the Remington 870 as service shotguns not exactly high priced firearms....My old Mossy 500 is tough as a tank, never misfired and patterns very nice..... and I got it used for $90!!!!

There are expensive and VERY EXPENSIVE unreliable things (and guns)??? Heck YES!!!
I trust more a cheap 20+ years old abused Honda or Toyota than a brand new Jaguar or Land Rover any time of the day.....

You can be on a budget but still being smart.....need a ultra cheap car???, Get an old Datsun but do not touch an old Chrysler with a 10 foot pole..

I saw many Kimbers jamming at the range..would I buy one?? Not a chance...Would I buy a SIG or a Walther?? (expensive and high quality) Any time of the day....

The guns from the "ring of fire", "Saturday Night Specials" are at the bottom of the pile in every respect..cheap, unreliable, low quality and dangerous...

Suggesting to people that do not have much money to throw around to buy one of these contraptions is not right......Yesterday at the gun show there was an old Beretta 34 in 380 ACP..bluing gone but in decent shape and good rifling...asking price $100 and I bet you could get it for 90 or even less..the 34 is a military pistol, extremely tough and reliable....I would trust that pistol against an entire gang armed with Jennings....

Get a Makarov for $120-140...

 

[Sturmgewher]

Saturno v
Man, I couldn't agree with you more. If you are buying a gun for target shooting or plinking, fine, buy a sub $150 POS, but if you are betting your life on a defensive pistol you have to ask yourself how much your life is worth? The budget minded would be far better served with a Makarov .380 loaded with Glaser saftey slugs and not have to spend much more than what a Jennings, Lorcin, Hi-Point, et al would cost.
As far as Kimbers jamming, it's not uncommon to have feed failures with a new 1911. Until you burn 300-500 rounds through them, they ain't broke in. Add to that the propensity of many shooters to see magazines as being created equally. They ain't. You buy a cheap mag, expect to get your moneys worth in performance. Which brings us full circle, standing in the gun shop picking out a defensive weapon is not the time to start cutting corners. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. If you are willing to bet your life on a cheap gun, buy the heaviest one you can and train to use it as a bludgeon when it inevitably jams.
AND keep in mind that all guns can jam. Stoppage drills are as critical to defensive pistol training as marksmanship. If you own a gun for home defense, you are half way to being prepared, your next step is training, training and training. Practice like your life depends on it, because it just might.

 

[saturno_v]

Saturno v
Man, I couldn't agree with you more. If you are buying a gun for target shooting or plinking, fine, buy a sub $150 POS, but if you are betting your life on a defensive pistol you have to ask yourself how much your life is worth? The budget minded would be far better served with a Makarov .380 loaded with Glaser saftey slugs and not have to spend much more than what a Jennings, Lorcin, Hi-Point, et al would cost.
As far as Kimbers jamming, it's not uncommon to have feed failures with a new 1911. Until you burn 300-500 rounds through them, they ain't broke in. Add to that the propensity of many shooters to see magazines as being created equally. They ain't. You buy a cheap mag, expect to get your moneys worth in performance. Which brings us full circle, standing in the gun shop picking out a defensive weapon is not the time to start cutting corners. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. If you are willing to bet your life on a cheap gun, buy the heaviest one you can and train to use it as a bludgeon when it inevitably jams.
AND keep in mind that all guns can jam. Stoppage drills are as critical to defensive pistol training as marksmanship. If you own a gun for home defense, you are half way to being prepared, your next step is training, training and training. Practice like your life depends on it, because it just might.

Sturmgewher


I disagree, I would never use one of these "Saturday Night Special" even for plinking.....I care for my hands in case of blow-ups and I do not want to get frustrated not hitting anything

Don't put Hi-Point in the same category as these junk guns..it is not fair


By the way the entire argument that these "ring of fire" companies fell on bad times because some sort of conspiracy to avoid poor people getting guns is pure nonsense and should be put to rest...

If you educate yourself just a bit, there are always been and there always will be good inexpensive choices on the used market, way better and sometimes cheaper than buying one of these pieces of pot metal junk...Old 38 revolvers, small semi auto in 25, 32 and 380 ACP, Makarovs, old CZs, Rugers, etc....

If your purpose is to defend your house, there are even more choices for long guns...

Jennings and similar had problems with authorities because they built dangerous unreliable devices..period.

Why nobody is giving Hi-Point any legal problems??? Because their ugly guns actually work!!!!

 

[Sturmgewher]

Saturno v
Good points all, brother. Surplus handguns can be an inexpensive source for reliable pistols in realistic calibers for self defense. Realistic being defined as anything above .32 ACP. I know there allot of fans of this dimunitive little auto but to paraphrase Jeff Cooper, a .32 is a dangerous gun as shooting someone with it may incite them to violence. While a mouse gun is better than no gun, I wouldn't bet my life on a .32 and I wouldn't use a .25 for anything more than a paper weight. I'm sure someone can cite dozens of examples of .25 and .32 gunshot wounds causing fatal results, but how many mouse gunners are now at room temperature besause their trusty pop guns failed to stop an attacker? Give me a .45 or .40 any day and those bothered by recoil should probably consider OC spray or stun guns.

 

[JohnBT]

"Three Mill Bastard File Academy
Dremel Online Gun Fixing School
Hacksaw & Cyl Hone Shotgun Services"

I think I've just discovered what I'm going to do to make a little money in retirement.

Do you think Earl Sheib or Maaco offer a class in spray painting guns?

John

 

[Ltlabner]

Reciently I have become a big believer in getting training and a lot of it. I know that's sort of a "no duh" statement, but I think there are far more people who buy a gun and drop it in the night-stand than actually get consistant and regular professional training.

Going to the range and shooting off 50 rounds doesn't count as training, in my book. Neither does taking some of the state mandated training classes for CCW (or at least in Ohio). I'm talking about actual training classes ala TDI, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch et al (there's plenty of other places out there of course). I'm talking about training that involves shooting 1800 rounds in 3 days combined with movement, malfunction drills, live fire houses, progressive drills for various scenarios, etc etc etc etc etc etc.

The schedule I've addopted is 2 professional classes per year minumum with at least 2 range trips per month between classes (500 rounds per trip). Dry fire practice several times a week, along with draw and aim sessions. Yea, it's expensive and time consuming, but we're talking about protecting my wife and soon to be baby girl, so it's worth missing an episode or three of American Idol to put in the time.

Here's a hypothetical challenge for all the Jennings crowd. Take 10 of your best Jennings/Bryco/Lorcins and 10 Glocks and put them through a weekend class shooting at least 1800 rounds in 3 days. Then the following week have several dry fire sessions and practice racking the slide and pulling the trigger after reset.

Which set of guns do you think will survive this with zero breakdowns or malfunctions and which do you think will die or require repeated field repairs to keep going?

 

[mbt2001]

When the Chinese SKS weapons first came out in the early 90's had the internet been around to any degree like today, I am sure that we would have heard the same crap stories...

In fact, when the new Hi points came out, I heard the same stories... Do a thread search. Lately, all I hear is about that they are cheap, ugly, reliable. I guess the weight of other decent experiences / reviews finally causes others to all admit the same thing.

I will say this, the Jiminez guns are made in the USA. Customer Service is fine and you shouldn't be scared to give them a try. 90% of the trash talked is from uninformed people that jump on any trash talking wagon that passes by. Gun "appreciaters" (the real ones) don't knock before they try and tweak what doesn't work until it does. It is a hobby.

Which set of guns do you think will survive this with zero breakdowns or malfunctions and which do you think will die or require repeated field repairs to keep going?

A Smith and Wesson Model 19 shooting .357's wouldn't live through that test. Anyway, dunno, I would actually like to try that. I have never put them through a test like that. Most I put throught them is 300 or so rounds. I don't think they are made for thousands in a day...

 

[Phil DeGraves]

"Most of the haters have never fired one and are getting their info from Brady sponsored propaganda against Saturday Night specials."

Obviously, to START a thread off with a defensive comment like this shows that the poster is not going to be objective. But, the facts are the facts. Most gun stores I know won't even take any of those RoF guns in trade because they are so unreliable. That is not my opinion, that is a FACT.
But, if that is all you can afford, I suppose it's better to have it than nothing at all.

 

[saturno_v]

mbt2001

Maybe you right, when the Chinese SKS and/or Norinco products came around people were suspicious of them.
Same for Hi-Point, I agree with you that people can have a bias initially against low priced guns (or everything else for that matter)

Don't forget Taurus...horrible at the beginning till they came around....in that case it wasn't perception...the early guns were really bad...

But, hey, they proven themselves over the years and now pretty much anybody knows that they are decent firearms...
I would never ever buy an Hi-Point, however they work reasonably well I have to admit that..

The Saturday Night Special junk started as junk and keep being regarded as junk because.....well because they are junk....

What kind of thinking is yours when you say "if Hi-Point build decent guns at low prices why Jimenez cannot??" So what is your point or logic?? Hyundai build good inexpensive cars, Yugo build inexpensive crappy cars...people and corporations are different....

They are both American made so what?? Hi-Point take care of quality Jimenez or whatever these contraptios are called (they change name frequently..I wonder why....) doesn't...

And guess what...any Gun Shop in my area (Washington state) sells Hi-Point....I never ever seen one of these pot metal paperweight of yours in any borderline respectable store other than couple of used ones in some filthy pawn shops......last Sunday I saw for the first time ONLY ONE at a gun show.

What do you think is the reason???

If you are so lucky that you got only the good ones that work....wow congratulation!!!!...you are a statistical rarity....

I hope that you do not have a secret agenda with your posts..like trying to boost the sales of these things...guess what it is a waste of time...THR is not the kind of audience will ever fall for that....