Low number M1903 Springfield

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Palescarab

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This one has been debated for a long time and I’ve read mass amounts of information on the subject but due to the serial number of my rifle(US Springfield Armory Model 1903 #825539) I’ve always kept it as more of a collector’s piece than a shooter. However, lately I’ve had the itch to put a few rounds through some of my collection that are gathering dust. Safety of course is my first concern and I Also don’t want to knowingly destroy a vintage firearm that has a recorded history of receiver failures in the early serial numbers. Springfield Armory had changed their heat treatment process by serial # 800,000 and Rock Island Arsenal by # 286,507. The US army at some point wanted to withdraw somewhere in the neighborhood of like 1,000,000 low number guns from service because they couldn’t be re-heat treated though the process would be gradual. My rifle looks like it has seen some type of refurbishment judging from the markings on the barrel though it still possesses its straight bolt that’s found on low number guns. Seen a lot of arguments from both sides. Some sources indicate it’s not a good idea to shoot anything with a serial # below a 1,000,000. others indicate that previous failures likely had more to do with ammunition they were using at the time more than with the heat treatment used On the guns and should be much safer to shoot while others claim it’s a combination of the two. The last time I could find one of these guns had a serious failure happened somewhere between 1987-1988 and the serial number of the gun was over 1,000,000 and occurred while using WW2 military ball ammunition. Prior to that there were no reported receiver failures after 1929 (though it was assumed they likely took place) and a unknown quantity of low number guns that saw use during WW2 experienced no reported failures. I guess my question is with the serial number being so close to that 800,000 mark on rifles produced at the Springfield Armory should I have any concern about firing the rifle using modern ammo? I know there’s a calculated risk in firing any firearm it just so happens this particular model of firearm has a known risk factor. While it has clearly seen some use it seems to be in pretty good shape. Thank you for the feedback.
 

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Prior to that there were no reported receiver failures after 1929 (though it was assumed they likely took place) and a unknown quantity of low number guns that saw use during WW2 experienced no reported failures

Safety incident reports are only available to certified safety investigators and the legal department. You have to have a "need to know". I think Hatcher had a report made during the investigation on what to do with the one million low number receivers in Army inventory. I think the data base dates to then. Hatcher reports an investigation and the team that conducted metallurgical investigations recommended that all low number receivers be scrapped. This was rejected as it was cheaper to keep a defective rifle in use than replace it. If the weapon survived till the barrel was worn out, the receiver was scrapped at depot. If the defective rifle blew up in service, injuring some sailor, soldier, or Marine, well tough luck to the injured. Rehabilitative services were paid for an agency outside of the War Department, so it made economic sense to a cash strapped service to injury individuals rather than spend money replacing defective rifles.

I think it is probably that whatever database had been maintained, the purpose for it ended once the services decided to keep low number 03's in inventory. Collecting data and maintaining a database costs money. Why spend money when there is no purpose? There are known low number receiver blowups before Hatcher's database and there have been the occasional reports since Hatcher's Notebook has been published in 1948

If you have not figured out, the organization you work for considers you a disposable item, and safety has always been a cost/benefit analysis. And in this case, in this period, service members were considered cheaper than a forty dollar rifle.

The primary problem was not the heat treatment, it was a lack of temperature gauges. Army Arsenals were underfunded and out of date from the Civil War to WW1. The lack of temperature gages meant that anywhere heat was applied to metal, human eyeballs were deciding the temperature. Go watch Forged in Fire where knife smiths have to make a knife blade under very short time periods. Every show that I can remember, someone's blade has cold shunts, delaminations, and/or is burnt due to over heating. It is very common to see a knife blade, or sword blade, go flying off in fragments because the heat treatment burnt the steel. Human eyeballs were recognized at the time, that is 1914 period, as poor judges of steel temperatures.And that has not changed.

Also, due to the rush to increase production, unskilled or untalented workers were installed on the production. For a contemporary similar situation, research the problems with Boeing 737 Amax Production:

He Spoke Up On 737 Max. Now He'll Speak Out.
10 Dec 2019 New York Times

Mr. Pierson is going public for the first time. In an interview, he expressed concern that many of the planes produced in 2018 were unsafe and that Boeing was more focused on meeting production deadlines than on safety.

Mr. Pierson said, a shortage of workers, including mechanics, electricians and technicians, caused the overtime rate at the factory to more than double. Workers were completing jobs out of sequence, leading to additional mistakes. And senior executives at Boeing exacerbated the problems, he added, by berating employees about delays and urging them to work faster.

"What I witnessed firsthand, the chaos and the instability in the factory, is really unsettling to me as someone who's been around aircraft their entire life," he said.

I am certain in the run up to WW1 Springfield Armory was technologically behind the times in equipment, training, people, and process controls. And then WW1 hit. World War 1 was hugely disruptive to all factories as skilled workers were leaving to volunteer to fight, and then, the draft kicked in. Factories had to ramp up production levels and the machines, people, and processes were not there and the number one priority was to get things out the door. And there was a perverse incentive in the forge shops, workers were paid piece rate. If they cranked up the temperatures, they could stamp out parts faster.

Something else, Springfield Armory did not have a metallurgy group nor incoming material inspection. When ever I read a materials analysis of the steels used in the single or double heat treated receivers, the material quality is poor. This is to be expected when a buyer does not know better. The smart steel maker delivers the worst steel to the stupidest buyer. To fix this, Springfield Armory created a Metallurgical Department of ten full time workers. That is very expensive, just add 10 people to your family, and these had to have been professionals. There was a huge revamping of Springfield Armory, in fact, in the middle of the largest shooting war in human history (to then) Springfield Armory was shut down. That is huge, huge, huge, but Hatcher does not address or comment on that. But it really shows how messed up Springfield Armory was, and how much work it took to put it back together.

I am of the opinion that the same stock of steel purchased for low number receivers was used all the way through to 1927, when the switch over to nickle steel happened. We do know, from Hatcher's Notebook, that the double heat treat was maintained until then, because the Army had used up its WW1 stockpile. The double heat treatment is more or less a mis direction of a much bigger mess. The double heat treatment did not turn plain carbon steels into mythic super steels. It was a "better" heat treatment, but in so far as improving the base properties of Class C steels, well no matter how much you polish a turd, it stays a turd.

There is a cult of the single heat treat receivers, but what I want to know from those who claim they are safe, just how many rounds have you put through yours? Based on all the web interactions I have had, the ones demanding that I prove low number receivers are unsafe, are simply trolls, stirring the pot, with no skin in the game.

There are known blow ups of double heat treat receivers, over pressure loads will dissemble them just as they will any other.

 
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As you said, pulling the trigger on any firearm is a calculated risk. So is walking out the door.

Ive read Hatcher. I think he had lots of first hand experience, and a modicum of engineering and metallurgical smarts.

Ive read lots of Slamfires posts on the subject. Hes not wrong either.

Ive had 4 Springfields. I sold my very nice sub-800k '03 after shooting it a handful of times. I calculated the risk to be too great.

I do shoot my 1.3M '03 (with a Remington nickel steel bolt) regularly. I calculate the risk of a case seperation and subsequent catastrophic failure with a double-heat treated receiver to be acceptable to me.

So, ultimately the decision is yours, but would I shoot your gun? Yup.
 
Once upon a time, you could send your low number 03 in to the DCM and they would transplant your barrel and stock to a high number receiver. Obviously those supplies are long gone, but it shows the official position.
 
Once upon a time, you could send your low number 03 in to the DCM and they would transplant your barrel and stock to a high number receiver. Obviously those supplies are long gone, but it shows the official position.
Technically, the OPs rifle is not a low-number, and should have undergone double-heat treatment.
 
I have an '03 from 1922, the serial number is in the 1.2 M. Never had a problem shooting it, from everything that I've read, receivers below 1M shouldn't be used.

Personally, I wouldn't shoot it unless you make your own hand loads. And make them light loads so that you don't over stress the receiver.
 
Might be great shooter with cast bullets.

Not such a great idea when low numbers blow up with cast bullet loads

WONXBTG.jpg

I don't have a real problem with shooting my double heat treats, even though I am of the opinion that they are not the all to end all.

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Hatcher praised the double heat treats to the point that you would think the receivers cast a heavenly halo. 'Yes, a little bit of God is in every receiver!" Hatcher dismisses a double heat treat failure in his book, and the author of the image above used the same logic. All those receivers were held in the left hand and and struck with a nylon faced mallet held in the right. None of those receivers should have shattered, especially the double heat treat. But ignoring all the hoopla provided by Hatcher, something wrong was happening on the production line and one poster on Culvers had a list of 28 known double heat treat blowups.

I have a number of double heat treats, have shot them all , and I keep my loads light. My match load is a 168 SMK 47.0 grs IMR 4895, or a fun load, a 150 SMK or FMJ, 47.5 grains IMR 4895. The second should duplicate ball ammunition, is probably in the low 40 kpsia range, which is what ammunition was getting to close to WW2. The original velocity could be reached at lower pressure and there was no need to bump pressures. Keep these vintage receivers to vintage pressures and the risk of a double heat treat fragging is less than a single heat treat. But, these things are variable.

The basic problem is, you don't know if the receiver is structurally sound until if blows up in front of your face. How much risk will you accept. It is worth having your jaw wired together for months?

I have more confidence with the post WW1 stuff the further the time line moves from WW1. My confidence is higher with the later receivers. The nickle steel receivers are made of good material and should be well made. But I really don't know a thing. about the quality controls at Springfield Armory, I don't know anything but what others have posted about their rifles and receivers. No body really knows as no body is taking receivers, sectioning them, and analyzing the metallurgical structure.

By the time you get to WW2, the A3 receivers and the Remington 03 receivers were made in the most technologically advanced time period, for the production of 03's. So I have zero issues with WW2 stuff.

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But, get around 1918, the technology of the era is early vacuum tube, and that means radios have the things, but I am not confident that vacuum tube technology was on the factory floor or in process inspection equipment.
 
Everyone has pretty much covered what I would say.

The O/P's receiver is not a low number receiver but nonetheless, I would reload for it and use more or less starting loads. I would do the same if it was a WWI Mauser, a Steyr 95, a Krag, No. 1, Mk. 3, or any other first generation to generation 1.5 of bolt action rifles designed for smokeless powder. There is simply little to no reason to hot rod one and much reason to not do so.

One thing for the O/P to check though, if you do have a older bolt, the heat treatment problem was also present in the bolts. You can detect these by what the CMP describes here, "Generally speaking, “low number” bolts can be distinguished from “high-number” bolts by the angle at which the bolt handle is bent down. All “low number” bolts have the bolt handle bent straight down, perpendicular to the axis of the bolt body. High number bolts have “swept-back” (or slightly rearward curved) bolt handles."

They continue with their warning,

"CMP ALSO DOES NOT RECOMMEND FIRING ANY SPRINGFIELD RIFLE, REGARDLESS OF SERIAL NUMBER, WITH A SINGLE HEAT-TREATED “LOW NUMBER” BOLT. SUCH BOLTS, WHILE HISTORICALLY CORRECT FOR DISPLAY WITH A RIFLE OF WWI OR EARLIER VINTAGE, MAY BE DANGEROUS TO USE FOR SHOOTING.

THE UNITED STATES ARMY GENERALLY DID NOT SERIALIZE BOLTS. DO NOT RELY ON ANY SERIAL NUMBER APPEARING ON A BOLT TO DETERMINE WHETHER SUCH BOLT IS “HIGH NUMBER” OR “LOW NUMBER”.

Sorry for the all caps but that is how the CMP presents this http://old.thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/m1903-m1903a3/
 
One thing for the O/P to check though, if you do have a older bolt, the heat treatment problem was also present in the bolts. You can detect these by what the CMP describes here, "Generally speaking, “low number” bolts can be distinguished from “high-number” bolts by the angle at which the bolt handle is bent down. All “low number” bolts have the bolt handle bent straight down, perpendicular to the axis of the bolt body. High number bolts have “swept-back” (or slightly rearward curved) bolt handles."

Good point. Those single heat treat bolts were forged by the same guys who were burning the receivers, so the bolts ought to be burnt at a similar frequency. And don't let parts sellers send you "early double heat treat" bolts with straight handles. I had that happen, and sent them all back. I don't know if they were double heat treat or not, (some would), but my face is worth more than any defective part I might buy.

I did not know what this was, it is so rare, and it is a Rock Island Nickle steel bolt. Straight bolt handle. I have never used it because it is rare, and that is what I recommend to anyone who has one. Save it for trading, someone out there has a nickle steel RIA receiver and is looking for this bolt.

0OMLnT6.jpg

I don't have pictures of my WW2 Springfield Armory made 03 bolts, but they are the best of the bunch. The pre WW2 nickle steel bolts are fine and all that, but SA did not carburize the things so they are sticky in operation in a nickle steel receiver. The WW2 SA bolts are probably made of 8620 and are carburized, so they are as slick as a double heat treat bolt. Their maching looks to be as good as any pre war bolt.
 
So unique is a suggested powder for 3006....who would have thunk it.

Heck load it up with trail boss, that should work as well.
 
So unique is a suggested powder for 3006....who would have thunk it.

Heck load it up with trail boss, that should work as well.

There are a lot of cast bullets loads, some use Unique. I decided AA5744 was the best cast bullet powder in rifle cases, and then, I decided, casting was a huge waste of time. It is a major project setting up and cleaning up. I could have bought, and I did, expensive ingots, it took all day to go to the scrap yard and buy lead. Smelting scrap lead was another couple of days. Casting is a mess, leaves lead all over the place, sizing is time consuming, set up and clean up again. After buying all the equipment, and lead, I was not saving any money, I was taking too much time for a box of bullets when I could have been doing something else, like taking a nap! And then, cast bullets are slow, and only shot well occasionally. My four groove 1903's hated them, but my two groove A3 actually shot them sub 4 MOA.

I decided to buy in bulk, cast pistol bullets, I did cast minie balls, that worked out. Cast rifle bullets are sitting around because they don't shoot better than cheap mil surplus bullets, or more expensive pulled jacketed. There might be some applications where it is worth casting, like my .460 diameter barrel on my 1881 Trapdoor. But I am waiting for hell to freeze over before I get back into it. All in all, casting is a huge waste of time and you end up with equipment that rusts away because you are not using it. It is just better to buy than make you own.
 
I would like to see the "case beat out of the chamber" of the demolished cast bullet shooter in Post #8.
Bolt stated to look undamaged, barrel apparently undamaged, receiver blown to smithereens.
 
I would like to see the "case beat out of the chamber" of the demolished cast bullet shooter in Post #8.
Bolt stated to look undamaged, barrel apparently undamaged, receiver blown to smithereens.

Not everyone is a trained accident investigator and those who are not explain the best they can. This is observable in countless threads where it takes several days to figure out what the reloader/shooter was doing. I think the most common problem is omission of details. Original posters often believe what they know, everyone else also knows. It is a primitive state of mind. And it follows a mind experiment that I have read about. The experiment is, actor A on a stage, a box on a table. The actor puts an orange ball into the box and closes it. Then actor "B" arrives from behind the curtain. The child observer assumes that actor "B" knows there is an orange ball in the box, because the child knows.

This is not only a primitive state of mind, it is crucial to the pace of movies. How many movies have you seen where it takes the whole movie for the "Good Cops" to figure out the convoluted trail of clues to find the "Bad guys". Often these movies have the "Good Cops" being chased after by their organization because the "Bad guys" had enough influence inside the "Good Guy" Cop Agency to frame the "Good Cops" At the end of the movie with a massive shoot out, dead bodies every where, the Commissioner of the "Good Guy" Cop Agency drops in, and even though three seconds before was totally against the "Good Cops ", now he knows the "Good Cops " were framed, the identity and motives of the "Bad guys", and all the nefarious things the "Bad guys" were doing.

Well of course the Commissioner could not instantly know all the details that took a whole movie for the "Good Cops" to discover. It would take about two more hours of additional movie time to explain it all to the Commissioner. And that would make for a boring movie, requiring each new character to be debriefed on what had happened previous. It would destroy the pace of the movie. But movie makers know, the audience assumes all characters know what the audience knows. Even though it is impossible for actor "B" to know that an orange ball is inside the box on the stage.

I guess, it proves audiences are stupid.
 
OK, who's got the ball, or the case, or the bolt? I may be asking too much of a facebooker who doesn't know if he had 13 or 14 grains of powder. Maybe he had 27. I can't find that facebook group.

Ah HA! Same rifle in a 2017 thread shows a badly blown casehead.
No doubt that release of gas into the action is destructive.
But I don't see how the heat treat of the action caused the case head to blow out.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not shooting or advocating shooting the low number guns, but it sure looks like it took two simultaneous failures to wreck that one.
 
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But I don't see how the heat treat of the action caused the case head to blow out.

What if the action had not been heat treated at all? One of those is documented in a 1917 Watertown Arsenal Report. For a rifle to reach the end of a production line, be proofed, and not have a heat treated receiver boggles the mind. (it did blow up later, yippie! ) It is evidence that Springfield Armory had a chaotic, out of control, production line.

But, lets say the receiver had been burnt. As I have been repeating ad nauseum, the problem was not the heat treatment, the problem was a lack of temperature gauges in the factory. The single heat treat was primitive, a heat and a quench. Not a particularly good heat treatment, particularly in a shallow hardening steel. But lets say the receiver had been burnt, is burnt steel tougher than unburnt steel? I don't think so.
 
i no longer fire my low numbered Model 1903 rifles: It ain't worth the chance.

Then there was the ammunition problem. Because of an ammunition problem that encompassed artillery rounds detonating in gun tubes to soft cased .30 caliber rounds destroying M1903 rifles; the US Army initiated it's first professional program, that of ammunition inspector.

During WWI one new maker of .30 caliber ammunition had two Model 1903 rifles blow up. It won't a rifle problem: The company's ammunition had very soft cases. Somewhere in my bunker is some of those rounds, given to me in about 1960 by an old US Army ammunition inspector.
 
Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not,

Pistol powders like Unique have long been used for reduced gallery loads in old military rifles. However, as Slamfire demonstrated above, it is no guarantee that an unsound receiver/barrel/bolt might not like it.

https://www.ammoland.com/2016/05/five-ways-i-make-reduced-ammunition-loads/

Just a little.

For me I just flat will not use a pistol powder in a rifle, IMHO just too darn fast no matter the loading, the pressure is just going to jump.....and pressure is the killer.

That all said yes I know that people just love to put a few grains of this that or the other in everything up to 45-70, and in my research even 4-5 grain loads in 45-70 put the pressure well into the 20's, where the slower rifle powders keep the pressures in the low to mid teens. If you are shooting a new marlin lever, who cares, if you are shooting an old BP rifle, you might think twice.....same goes with 3006.

In the end your face your choice, just don't blame the gun when you shatter your jaw when something else shatters.
 
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