1903 Springfield with a low serial number, 460,***

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the barrels are dated by the month they were built and the batches of barrels rarely match up with the exact month of production associated with the serial numbers. I find it highly unlikely that a pre war rifle was shot so much as to require rebarrel before the war. either that is a natural thing(though 10 month separation is pushing it a bit) or someone tried to come as close a possible to matchign dates with something he bought off ebay...

as for punch marks. not all rifles were proofed and the ones that were are still just as likely, if not moreso to blow than the unproofed ones. hairline fractures in the brittle steel can be invisible to the naked eye and if that was a brittle steeled receiver without defects or cracks before, the hammer and punch may have actually created some that could go at any moment.

at any rate. I have a low serial springfield that I know was rebarreled and given a new bolt. I shoot it from time to time with reduced loads. that's my prerogative and I will assume responsibility if it does ever blow.
 
Yep.

at any rate. I have a low serial springfield that I know was rebarreled and given a new bolt. I shoot it from time to time with reduced loads. that's my prerogative and I will assume responsibility if it does ever blow.
Yep. I have made the same decision. I have an early receiver...made in 1905 in a lot that has no recorded failures. Every now and then...
Pete
 
If it was mine, I'd shoot it, but I'd be sure to only use Garand-safe ammo with it, which has a similar pressure curve to what these rifles shot originally. Really, shoot it and have fun with it. Just don't use hot ammo and it'll be fine.

Really, it's no different than shooting a Springfield Trapdoor. While most modern .45-70 loads are down-loaded for the rare chance that someone will try shooting one in an old Trapdoor, there's a few otherwise-safe higher-powered loads out there designed for the later lever guns.

I'm a big advocate of shooting pieces of history to properly remember what their original users experienced. When I see guns in a museum, it saddens me sometimes that they will probably never be fired again, and with certain rare pieces it means no one else will get to experience that. Knowledge is lost to history. Of course, when it comes to the Chinese Jingall Wall Gun, NO ONE should have to experience that. There's history, and then there's insanity.
 
Remember in almost all the cases (not counting using the wrong ammo) it was due to WW1 ammo that had defective cases. When the case let go all the gas vented into the breech and the receiver was brittle instead of elastic and it shatters/cracks.

The Marines added "Hatcher holes" to give gas a way out and this was later made standard.

I have a 1911 '03 and it's been rebarreled at least once and it's sporting a nice USMC sedgley barrel on it now. I "would" stop shooting it as I have other high number guns but this particular rifle LOVES to put them in the black with standard M2 Ball.....so it's hard to not shoot a rifle that is VERY accurate....

Good quality brass/ammo with likely protect you from having any serious issues.

IIRC at one point were '03s subjected to another "proof" round testing to potentially weed out any bad ones?

Also remember the main issue is the receiver can be "brittle"...so shooting one with long headspace and a round that is at factory minimum can be just as dangerous if the bolt is allowed to "slap" the lugs hard due to tolerance "stack".


PS I have a pic around here somewhere of a low number USMC '03 with a grenade launcher on it...from the USMC Museum...just saying....

JMHO
 
What makes anyone think that Hatchers list is complete? All analyses based on Hatcher’s Notebook are fatally flawed in many ways. It is a listing of 03 blows ups from 16 July 1917 to 1929. The first receivers listed as blown up were a 1907 vintage receiver and a 1917 receiver. These receivers blew at National Brass & Copper Tube factory, a factory making ammunition for the US military during WW1. The 1907 receiver fragmented and blew a piece of shrapnel piercing the lung of the operator.

There is plenty of evidence, in the early Arms and the Man Magazine, (found on Google Books) that many receivers had blown prior to the creation of Hatcher’s list, but to then Springfield Armory and its supporters were able to misdirect and muffle this issue. Since bullets copper fouled something awful, everyone greased their bullets. This became an avenue for the Army to misdirect single heat treat blowups by claiming that greased bullets caused pressures to rise and to “increase bolt thrust”. This was a lie as evidenced by the greased bullets the Swiss Army used from the 1888’s to the 1980’s. (And the US Army knew this!) Any rifle designed to withstand less than the full thrust of the cartridge is a defective design and is bound to fail eventually. While the Springfield had been properly designed to carry the full cartridge load, it was improperly manufactured. I believe the Army created a perverse incentive: paying the forge shop workers piece rate. It would therefore be in the interest of the forge shop workers to heat up the forgings, because the metal would be more plastic, and faster to stamp out. Who knows, but we do know that instead of the Army spending money for temperature gages in the forge ovens, it went the cheap route and relied on medieval process controls: metal temperature estimations by eye. Regardless of the known facts, I also believe Springfield Armory was a ship leaking at all seams. Pre WW1 articles provide excuses, such as, too much case hardening, for receiver failure. This is possible, to have too thick a layer of case, which will cause the part to be brittle. Overall I believe Springfield Arsenal was under facilitized, old equipment, primitive process controls, its management, Army Colonels, were drinking Mint Juleps between chucker’s instead of managing their factory. Army Major General Hatcher gives the workforce an undeserved blackeye: instead of acknowledging the failure of Army management and oversight, he misdirects the blame towards the forge shop workers. But at the time, who within the Army had the resources and records to argue with an Army Arsenal about its defective products, and what foolish Officer was going to ruin his career proving that greased bullets had not blown the receiver, but that instead, the receiver was defectively made?

What made the 1917 event at National Brass and Copper Tube different and something that the Army had to acknowledge, were these blowups occurred outside of the Army chain of command. Springfield Armory did make up convincing sounding, but fallacious arguments: “cartridges cases not up to standard and secondarily, to receivers somewhat below the standard” but National Brass & Copper had qualified metallurgists, who could counter all of the self serving denialism coming out of Springfield Armory. Plus, National Brass & Copper could go outside of the Army chain of command and complain to their Congressmen . This was not an entity that the Army could bury and ignore, as it obviously had done to date with all Army personnel who had reported blown rifles. In fact, even after the National Brass and Copper Tube incident, in print in 1917, the Army denied that there was anything wrong with their rifles.


Blown up 1932

Receiver 323816

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Receiver 570, 095 Blown up 1932

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1931 Receiver 718, 233

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Receiver 764, 040 blown 1931

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As a class, these low number receivers were causing enough injuries, that as a class, an 1927 Army Board recommended scrapping all one million low number rifles. This was not done, in an immoral decision based on cost, and instead the rifles were kept in service until they blew up, or wore out and were sent to depot. At depot all low number receivers were scrapped.

The Marine Corp used their own screening system:

http://m14forum.com/bolt-action/100323-low-number-m1903-springfield.html


Do keep in mind that the "Raggedy Assed" Marines, who even today never throw away anything, ran their own ordnance system and made their own decisions about the single heat treated rifles and a lot of them were kept in service. Many years ago I had a passing conversation with a then very old former Marine who had been in the Corps during the between-the-war years and had experience with the low number rifles. The Corps elected to develop just the type program you speak of to determine which of the rifles were faulty and which were not. They utilized the highest scientific testing available to them (keep in mind that Marines are very innovative!) and decided the best method was to remove the action from the stock, take out the bolt, and then with a heavy hammer strike the receiver two solid blows. If it was improperly heat treated it would be brittle and the hammer blows would cause the receiver to shatter. Those receivers that shattered were obviously "withdrawn from service" and those that passed the test continued in service. This is not a story, this is what he actually told me. To the best of my knowledge, low number M1903 rifles continued in service in the Corps right up until they were replaced by the M1 Rifle.

The Marine Corp inspection technique sounds good to me. Whack a low number receiver with a hard hammer and if it shatters, the receiver is bad!

Still, these low number receivers are made of crap material that today is used for rebar. No one would use low grade plain carbon steel on such a safety critical part, at least, the manufacturer would lose their shirt in any product liability lawsuit. This material is inferior in all particulars to alloy steels and to compound the problem, the heat treatment was simply a quench. High quality knife blades undergo more sophisticated heat treatments. All of this means, when something goes wrong, even “good” low number receivers are likely to burst, because the material is not that good.

Therefore, shooting these things are a risk. When these rifles blow up, they have inadequate gas venting and people go to the hospital.


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=190985391

This item is a Springfield Armory model 1903 rifle that is a good wall hanger. Its been hanging on the wall of the shop for about 22 years. It is that bad a shape it has been blown up. This is a low ser # of 236162, I had this hanging on the wall to show people what would happen if they shot one of the old low ser # rifles with modern ammo. Look at the pictures to see that this is NOT a shoot able rifle. The guy that shot this rifle spend 4 days in the hospital getting metal out of his eye & metal out of his arms. No FFL required. I will send out a email at the close of the bidding, please copy & send back with payment. I’m selling out a gun shop that was in business for over 30 years. More parts & pieces to come. The shop did a lot of general repair & that’s why all the different parts. This and a bunch more that will be coming up for sale were in 4 other old gun shop’s that I’ve bought out over the last 31 year’s.
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Ouch. I have a high number SA 880,000. It's a sporter and I don't know if the bolt is original to the gun as they did not number them. I don't know if it was rebuilt or not. Is there anyway I can tell if the gun is safe with modern loads. It has not "Hatcher" hole.
According to SA records the gun was made in 1918 per nickel steel.

Thanks.
 
What made the 1917 event at National Brass and Copper Tube different and something that the Army had to acknowledge, were these blowups occurred outside of the Army chain of command. Springfield Armory did make up convincing sounding, but fallacious arguments: “cartridges cases not up to standard and secondarily, to receivers somewhat below the standard” but National Brass & Copper had qualified metallurgists, who could counter all of the self serving denialism coming out of Springfield Armory. Plus, National Brass & Copper could go outside of the Army chain of command and complain to their Congressmen

Yep, virtually all the .30 caliber ammo manufactured by National Brass and Copper Tube had soft cases. It was condemned by the US Army and ordered destroyed. i have some of the stuff. It's glaringly obvious that the cases are soft.
 
Good stuff

Slamfire: Thanks for that. It is very good info.
The later post about soft cases seems to contradict the story at National Brass and Copper.
I have heard about the "hammer" test before this....I have a number of thoughts about that procedure. One is that hitting any receiver twice and hard with a hammer cannot be a good thing for the receiver. One wonders how many good receivers were weakened by this practice.
The second is that hitting a receiver with a hammer is not a good test. A hammer strike is very different than cartridge ignition. SA had to proof these guns.....do we know how many rifles did not pass the proofing?
 
M1903 Springfield made at Springfield Armory below 800,000 ser num have questionable heat teatment (for whatever reason, personnel were gauging temperature by their perception of color which could be off by hundreds of degrees from the actual temperature).

Not all 1903 Springfields were made at SA. Per Wikipedia:
Pyrometers were installed in December 1917 to accurately measure temperatures during the forging process. The change was made at approximately serial number 800,000 for rifles made at Springfield Armory and at serial number 285,507 at Rock Island Arsenal. Lower serial numbers are known as "low-number" M1903 rifles. Higher serial numbers are said to be "double-heat-treated."
sourced to: Canfield, Bruce N. (2004). "U.S. M1903A1 Rifles". American Rifleman (National Rifle Association) 152 (January): 20.

Not all pre-1917 manufacture '03 Springfields guns had the carbon burned out of the their receivers. The simple test was to smack the receiver with a hammer: if it bent or dented it was ok, if it broke like glass it was burnt.

(As far as Hatcher being wrong for criticizing greasing 30-06 cartridges, I have learned to degrease the firing chambers of my .357 after cleaning before firing; if increased cartridge thrust from a lubricated .357 can jam a revolver, increased cartridge thrust from a greasy .30-06 casing cannot be a good thing for a bolt action rifle.)
 
No one knows why some of the low numbered Springfield rifles blew up. At least one blew up when a soldier loaded and fired a German 8mm ball round. Others blew up because of bore obstructions. Some blew up from firing substandard ammunition.

The model 1903 rifle has a design flaw in the form of the coned breech. The rear 1/8" of the cartridge case is left unsupported. A cartridge head separation when firing a M1903 Springfield rifle can be a traumatic event. The same is true of the model 1917 Enfield and the original model 70 Winchester: These guns also have coned breeches.

i'm a lefty: i was sitting at the bench to the left of right handed shooter who had a cartridge head separation in his beautiful Winchester model 70 rifle. The gun and scope were destroyed.

World War One caught the US totally unprepared. There are numerous stories of defective ammunition of all types. There was no quality assurance inspection of ammunition delivered to the US military by contractors. Much of the small arms ammunition manufactured by civilian firms was substandard. Artillery rounds blew up in gun tubes with great regularity. The US Army QUASAS (ammunition inspector) program got its start in WWI.

The use of poor grade steel 100 years ago was a common thing. Some model 1898 Mauser actions are very brittle. However, the gun has a good breeching system.

Some Krag actions were also brittle; but apparently they seldom blew up with service loads. As teenagers my brother and i came into 10 military Krag rifles from an American Legion post my Dad belonged to. My brother took three Krag actions to the local foundry to have them re-heat treated. Two came back heat treated; the third came back in pieces. A workman dropped the action on the concrete floor and it shattered.
 
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As I understand it if you show up at the national matches with a low number 03, they will not let you shoot it. This should tell everyone something. I have one and it is a nice example of early production, that will never be shot in my lifetime.
 
Recent

So, assuming everybody knows there is that risk, and maybe nearly all low serial numbered guns were turned to wall hangars...

Just how many documented blow ups happened, say, from 1950 to 1980?

I don't think many.

I hunted and sighted in beforehand with one of these.

Obviously modern ammo, which were typically Remmington Core Lockt 150's, some 180's.

Did I swap in a new BBL after recovering it from its theft and 17 months in the woods under a tree?

Yup.

But I wouldn't think shooting 10 rounds a year would be any more risky than a month's drives to Walmart to inspect the ammo shelves.

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ps.. I think almost all brittle 1903's were tossed in trenches about 1918, and a few more in 1943 or so.
 
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I have to ask. Since we copied the 98 Mauser why didn't we use venting holes and why did we use a coned breach? I have seen Japanese rifles that had more venting holes than my truck has tires as I recall.
Is it possible/feasable to add a venting hole to my high number Springfield?
 
As far as Hatcher being wrong for criticizing greasing 30-06 cartridges, I have learned to degrease the firing chambers of my .357 after cleaning before firing; if increased cartridge thrust from a lubricated .357 can jam a revolver, increased cartridge thrust from a greasy .30-06 casing cannot be a good thing for a bolt action rifle.)

If lubricated cases in your 357 magnum jam your revolver cylinder, then the cause is very simple: your loads are too hot. As shown in this Army presentation, lubed cases do not increase chamber pressure, and, I will assume, neither do grease bullets.
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What lubricated cases do is break the friction between case and chamber and allow the full thrust of the cartridge on the bolt face/breech face. This happens to be critical for blowback actions. What has been happening with your dry cases in dry chambers is that the friction between case chamber has been disguising your over pressure loads. The fact that the case is carrying load, which it was not designed to do, does not mean the load has gone away. The cylinder always carried most of the load: the total load is the surface area of the cartridge case time pressure. The cylindrical part of the case is putting a radial load on the cylinder and the fact that your cases are hard to extract when wet is evidence of too high of pressures.

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I have to ask. Since we copied the 98 Mauser why didn't we use venting holes and why did we use a coned breach? I have seen Japanese rifles that had more venting holes than my truck has tires as I recall.
Is it possible/feasable to add a venting hole to my high number Springfield?


There is nothing in the literature available to the public describing the deliberations of the Army design committee which came up with the M1903. We know the Army had M98 Mausers as the American Rifleman pictured two which the US Army had from 1898. No one knows whether the design group had access to them. Within the Government, the right hand never knows what the left had is doing. It is most likely the designers had M1896 Mausers on hand. Of course they had the Krag.

What is apparent by looking at an 03 is that the action has virtually no shooter protection features incorporated into the design. Later writers “found” some, for example, claiming the flared cocking piece knob was a safety feature from gas release. If any features do work, then it is by serendipity not original intent.

Gunwriters have been shilling for the cone breech for decades, because there were commercial actions with cone breeches. I do not consider the cone breech any more reliable in feed than the Mauser M98 breech and it is far inferior in cartridge support and preventing gas release. It is also harder to fit a barrel to a cone breech action as you have to time the barrel so the extractor cut is in line with the extractor. That extractor cut is actually a source of feed unreliability. I have a M70 which was messed up when it left the factory and cartridge release is late. The bullet nose dives into the extractor cut and causes a jam. The bad receiver is in the top picture. Notice the right receiver rail is slightly scalloped, the factory did this and that is what causes late cartridge release from the magazine. The cartridge does not have the space or time to straighten out and the bullet tip nose dives into the extractor cut.

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This is a good receiver. Both receiver rails are parallel.

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When I called up Winchester Customer Service in New Haven, told them that my target rifle would not reliably feed from the magazine, they laughed at me after I told them all the work that had been preformed on the action. The lugs were trued, bolt face trued, the receiver front trued, action clip slotted, and a custom Krieger barrel installed. I had bought a new rifle because that was the only way to get an action and I assumed, incorrectly, that a new Winchester rifle would be properly built and would be an excellent basis for a target rifle. I was wrong, all that work voided the Winchester Warranty, and Customer service laughed at me. :fire:

Winchester New Haven later went bust and I hope all you clowns from Customer Service had a backslapping good time in the unemployment line. :neener:

Reliable feed from the magazine is something that has to be carefully engineered and the action has to be made properly made for it to work. These early rifles had feed lips machined into the receivers based on the geometry of the cartridge they were designed to use. Cartridges of different shapes, lengths, contours, can have feed issues. A well built Mauser or 03 will feed the cartridges they were designed for very reliably, and it is my opinion, that the simplistic gunwriter comment that cone breech is more reliable than any other is not based on technical merits of the cone breech, but is based on what they were told to print. I have a very low opinion of gunwriters, I think the primary consideration for a gunwriter is to have a very flexible large colon, so the advertiser can reach up and flap its jaws easily. These guys don’t have the independent ability, nor are they supposed to, filter out the fantastic claims that the product manufacturer’s tell them to print.

Gas vent holes are not as effective as increased case head support and gas blocking features. I highly recommend the book "The Bolt Action" by Stuart Otteson for an outstanding discussion of the shooter protection features that Mauser put into the M98 action. You can also see the tradeoffs in the Rem 700 action, which make it one of the strongest and safetest actions, and yet, the extractor is marginal.

A further comment, in every point of departure from the M98 action, the 03 designers created a worse action. The 03 is less strong, less safe, and less reliable. I have broken a number of cocking pieces, firing pins, collars, replaced a number of chewed up bolt stops and bolts with ruined left lugs, battered because of the inadequate size of the bolt stop. The bedding on all 03's eventually goes bad and this is not helped by the forward angled rear tang screw, combined with a tiny tang bedding pad. Actions screws should have been parallel and straight down. With screw tension being on an curve, instead of a line, it is easy to bow the action.

The 03 is a rifle that should have been replaced by the M1917, if an adult had been in charge of the Ordnance Department in July 1917, when the single heat treat receiver problem was acknowledged, the production of 03's would have stopped. The US Army was actually taking away 03's from units deploying abroad, because everyone else was using the M1917. I think only the Marines had 03's. More M1917's were produced a year and a half than all of the 03's in four decades of production, and it was a better battle rifle.

I would be curious to find just how many 03's were in Army units in France.
 
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Wasn't the problem with the "grease" is that it sometimes got on the neck of the case as well and when chambered was between the neck and chamber wall and prevented the neck from expanding to release the bullet when fired...THAT was cause for increased pressure...at least the way I remember reading about it...???
 
Sounds reasonable, but then, cover-ups often sound reasonable, they just fail on the details. I read in an American Rifleman dope bag article of at least five nations that used greased bullets. The one I remember was Austria-Hungary, and the article did not mention the Swiss use of greased bullets.

Why were the Swiss able to use greased bullets from the 1880’s to the 1980’s and not have blown rifles?

Because the Swiss built quality rifles and ammunition, unlike the US Army Ordnance Department.


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Slam Fire, thank you very much for your extremely informational posts. I have enjoyed reading them and have gained valuable knowledge about the flaws regarding the M1903 rifle.

I myself own a Springfield M1903, one made in 1927. It of course is a "high" serial number one, and I have shot various commercial grade cartridges through it with no issues whatsoever. 150 to 180 grain bullets, some FMJ, some hunting-grade soft-point stuff.

I also own a M1917 Enfield, and much prefer to shoot that rifle! Better bolt design and more of a joy to shoot IMO.

Now, in one of your posts you mentioned that the M1917 shares an inherent weakness of design with the M1903 in the cone shaped breech face. I was under the impression that the M1917 was one of the strongest military actions made, capable of withstanding magnum loads. What say you?
 
Now, in one of your posts you mentioned that the M1917 shares an inherent weakness of design with the M1903 in the cone shaped breech face. I was under the impression that the M1917 was one of the strongest military actions made, capable of withstanding magnum loads. What say you?


I did reply to this, but on further reflection I deleted that post. This is primarily a thread on low number Springfields. If you want someone to provide information on the suitability of the M1917 for conversion to belted magnums, you would be better served asking that in the gunsmithing section where people who have converted this actions can provide a better reply.
 
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