LPVO vs high mag scope and offset red dot

[taliv]

There's been a lot of discussion on several forums about LPVO and offset optics lately, so I wanted to take some pics. I've recently built a new SPR style AR with 18" barrel, using a NF 4-16x ATACR and offset RMR, with the intent to replace my aging 18" build that sports a NF 1-8x ATACR aka LPVO, so this has been on my mind. I thought it would be useful to take some pics to illustrate the pros and cons of each setup. I'd recently remarked on my move into the national forest and how dark it is and difficult to see even white painted targets, and why I really like 2x and 3x, but not so much 1.5x, in the context of discussion around optics like the Elcan that jump from 1x to 4x with nothing in between. Hopefully this helps.

In the following pics, there are two 6" steel circles on tpost hangers, painted white, and roughly 30+ yards from the optic. The dueling tree off to the right is probably 12 yards.
All pics were taken from the same spot, at 1pm in the afternoon, on an overcast day.

In the following posts, I have pairs of pictures at each magnification; one pic as seen by the naked eye (camera) and another where i zoom in to the optic's FOV.

I took pics at 1x, 1.5x, 2x, 3x, 4x, 6x and 8x with the LPVO, and 4x, 6x, and 8x on the 4-16x optic.

Also note the reticles on both optics seem to blur out. I'm not sure why. In person, they're thin at the lower mag ranges, but certainly visible and usable. Perhaps the iphone doesn't like my diopter setting.

First up, the NF 1-8x ATACR

In the first pair of pics, you can see immediately that these white steel targets are hard to see without magnification. As you look at the second pic, keep in mind the zoom is from editing of the photo, not any magnification of the scope. You can see the two steel plates, several yards apart. Illumination is on, at the default medium setting.


At 1.5x I still can't pic them up any easier than I can at 1x


but at 2x, suddenly, i spot them pretty easy


at 3x and 4x it gets easier and easier, but at 4x, FOV gets small enough that I can't fit both in the same picture, so I just focus on the right target. Note at 4x, you can't even see the dirt road behind the right target.

 

[taliv]

Continuing with the 1-8x at the higher mags, then I switch guns and take a few pics through the RMR.

6x and 8x get really easy to make out the target, but the FOV is so small, it can take forever to find, especially in the woods. It would be different if you're in an open field.

switching guns and looking through the RMR now, which is obviously only 1x. The dot is set one click down from the default setting, which is too bright in the woods and obscures the target.

Again, these first two pics are zoomed by photo editing, so you can see what to look for in the other pics. One pic each of left and right targets:


I can see these targets one 1x, and shoot them all the time with RMRs on pistols and ARs, and using other red dots like a vortex AMG UH1 gen2 and Aimpoint Micro T1.... but I'm SLOWER on the clock on 1x than I am on 2-3x. And past 4x, I'm slower again.

 

[taliv]

Now the NF 4-16x ATACR, which obviously precludes 1x, 1.5x, 2x, and 3x.
I also took pics at 4x with the illumination on and off. It's off on 6 and 8x because I hardly ever use it.

And again, I'm not sure why the reticle is almost invisible. It's quite usable in person.

 

[taliv]

To continue illustrating the difference in capability of the larger scope with offset vs the LPVO, I ran a drill a little more interesting. For the drill, I put the 4-16x on 8x, to make it roughly apples to apples with the LPVO top end.

Start standing, on the buzzer, put one round on the 6" plate about 10 yards to the right marked with red arrow, then go prone and put one round each on a full size IPSC and a reduced (about 13"x8" or so) IPSC at 415 yards, marked with a 2nd arrow across the valley. The second pic shows a view through a spotting scope, where you can see some hostage setups where the goal is to hit the black targets without hitting the white ones, but for this drill, I'm just trying to put rounds on the big white meatballs as fast as I can.

I'm getting old and slow, as you can see from the 6 snaps I took of the shot timer, after my 6 attempts using the 4-16 and offset rds. my first run was a bit over 8 seconds, and then I had two better runs at 6.88 seconds and then a couple that were less good, and my worst one where i just lost the target at 9 seconds. But mostly, I'm .7s or .8s from the buzzer to the first ding with the RDS, and I've got 1.05 to 1.4 sec splits between the IPSCs, and the rest of the time is my "monkey humping a football" impression trying to get into prone from standing.



anyways, the summary is
I can lay down and get hits on the 6" black plate at 400 yards with either the 1-8x or the 4-16x, though it's a lot easier and faster with the 16x, and I make better wind calls.
On the clock, I'm pretty sure I can break into the 5 sec ballpark on this drill if i practiced with the offset RDS and 4-16x. But, on this drill, I don't think I could ever get close to that time with the 1-8x. If I set it on 4-8x, I'd lose a lot of time hitting the close target, and if I set it on 1-3x, I'd lose time on the far targets, and probably miss.

BUT, at 30 yards under the canopy of the national forest, I'd rather run at 2-3x, which is not an option on the 4-16x with RDS.

maybe, I should have picked a 3-18x scope or a 3-12x or whatever. or maybe I need to add an offset RDS to the LPVO. Everything's a compromise, but I like shooting precision targets so for now, I'm happy with the new setup.

 

[Zerodefect]

Nice to see another left handed 3gun-ish dual sighted AR.

Although I want to try irons for my offset 1x sights.

If I have the time and opportunity, I like to turn off or dim my Led for tough targets. Range work is almost always led off.

My 8x max mag is generally used just for acquiring the target, or checking zero. Usually I'm around 4x.

 

[C-grunt]

Im a big fan of the LPVO for a general purpose patrol rifle. That being a gun set up for mostly closer range engagements (under 200 yards) but has the ability to crank up the magnification for the more rare longer range or smaller target engagements.

I think the bigger scope with offset dot is better for long range while giving you a decent ability to have the more rare closer range engagement.

On a side note, I also usually run my duty rifle at 2x instead of 1x. I dont know exactly why, I just feel like it works better than the 1x through the scope.

 

[Zerodefect]

That's what it's there for. So why not.

I love LPVO because most of the time I can use it like an ACOG. But it's more well rounded towards other civvy uses.

I've been dragging my feet on offset sights, because some 3gunners are removing them, and simply point shooting, close up. If the target is too far for that, zoom out. Lefty versions are out of stock everywhere anyways.

 

[taliv]

https://www.valhallatactical.com/rukh/ In stock

 

[12Bravo20]

It's way easier to find an offset optic mount that is ambidextrous versus find left handed offset iron sights. When you find left hand offset irons, they are usually pretty pricy and I never cared for using right hand offset irons flipped over or left hand use.

 

[Zerodefect]

I've seen some irons that where 2 piece. You only flip the base. Those are naturally out of stock as well.

 

[12Bravo20]

I've seen some irons that where 2 piece. You only flip the base. Those are naturally out of stock as well.

Same here, and that is why I just stick to using a LPVO scope with a true 1X for now.

 

[Zerodefect]

I'm going to do that for now as well. Until I figure out why they're dropping them off in 3gun so often. I'm a 3gun noob, and it's all rocket science right now.

 

[taliv]

i think it would be cool if we took a scientific approach to these questions. Form a hypothesis about what one sighting system does better than another, design a scenario to test it, then break out the shot timer and measure it. that's essentially what i was doing above, by creating a scenario where the scope+RDS was faster than the LPVO by itself.

so, design a shooting scenario where offset irons is better than an offset RDS. or where point shooting is better than offset RDS, or where piggyback is better than offset, etc, and let's set it up and measure it

 

[Chuck R.]

In 3Gun, two optics on a carbine place the shooter in Open Division..

This generally means you're competing against:

Optics on pistol and possibly optics on shotgun, more importantly no magazine capacity limit on your shotgun. Which means either long, long, mag tubes and speed loaders or AK/AR15 shotguns with box fed mags. This adds quite a bit to your costs. Generally matches are won/lost on shotgun loading....

The most popular division at our matches in TAC Optics: Carbine with optics & irons, shotgun with 9 rd limit at start and pistol with irons. It's the least expensive equipment option, that will still allow you to be competitive, and most guys already have the equipment.

As I said on another thread. I've got off-set irons on my 3gun rig and I've used them in a match...once. Usually the tgt array's allow plenty of time for a throw lever due to requiring movement. Also a lot of the really close in carbine TGTs can easily be "point shot" and you can leave your LPVO on 3X to make the 50yd plus engagements. "Rolling" the gun to acquire the off-set sights is another thing that has to be practiced to do it quickly.

It's actually pretty rare at my club to see a carbine with off-set anything. Most guys are just running 16" guns with a LPVO, 30rd mags (I use 40's for long stages to use as a mono-pod, TAC Optics can't use a Bi-Pod)) or an occasional Magpul drum on the high round count carbine stages.

 

[Zerodefect]

Yeah, I'm in Tac Op.

 

[taliv]

i stopped shooting 3gun many years ago because of the idiocy around shotgun loading winning matches. I am just looking for the most practically effective in each category. My carry gun since 2013 is a full size with RDS. If i'm using an AR, it's the most efficient i can afford. and i don't even own a shotgun.

 

[Zerodefect]

There's way less shotgun loading now.

I've been also been experimenting with Bindon aiming. Works best if magnification is too high, and led is set too bright. Ironically, so far my Vortex Strike Beagle is doing that better than my Trijicon Credo. That may have been my eyes. My Trijicon 5-20x does the Bindon thing as well as an ACOG, because anything over 5x minus well be the same as a scope cover.

You can use your front scope covers to close up and switch to Bindon easier. Kinda like glasses with an obstructed lens.

 

[Skylerbone]

https://www.valhallatactical.com/rukh/ In stock

Things that exist, I didn’t know I wanted, until I saw. That is one smart accessory!

 

[Varminterror]

Personally, I lean heavily towards higher magnification, and if I really need super fast short range, gross aiming, I’ll stick an RDS on the side.

BUT...

Two things typically end up negating my need/motivation to spend the extra money and add the extra weight/bulk/snag point onto my AR’s. 1) I simply don’t do enough “go-fast” shooting to really drive myself to NEED a faster, short range option, and 2) I shoot very well with both eyes open and high mag optics at short range.

It might be a dogfight to decide which is faster for me if I practiced equally to develop both skills between simply shooting faster through a high magnification scope versus practicing faster transitions to roll the rifle to present the RDS.