Lyman Great Plains Rifle

[KennBarrett]

I have what I believe to be a technical question regarding the patent breech of the .54 cal Lyman Great Plains Rifle. I've made tubes from nitrated cigarette paper containing pre-measured powder amounts, such as 60 gr. & 90 gr. I've appropriately sized the tube diameter just under .54 cal so that it can be conveniently inserted into the muzzle & allowed to drop to the breech. I would then insert a lubed patch & .530 ball with my short starter & complete the loading procedure with my ramrod. I've never had any ignition problems doing this in a muzzleloader with a conventional flat breech. Regardless of whether or not the delicate cigarette paper burst under compression by the patch & ball, it's nitrated & the RWS 1075 #11 percussion cap always does its job. I'm concerned though about doing this in my Lyman because it has a patent breech. In the event the pre-loaded tube doesn't burst, the sparks from the cap should be sufficient for the 2-F powder to ignite. However, would there be a possibility of creating what might instead be perceived as a blockage, thereby causing quite an unintentional reaction?

 

[arcticap]

The blockage that you are asking about would seem to be a possibility, even if it's remote.
A photo and description of the GPR breech plug shows that it has a "drill point" design.
I don't know how narrow your cartridges are.
Why don't you just break them open and pour some of the powder in first?
AFAIK that was a requirement during the civil war, to tear the cartridge open with one's front teeth.

Here's a photo in Post #4 of a GPR breech plug.--->>> https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/lyman-patent-breech.82368/

Post #2 describes it as being the same as in the photo: --->>> https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/lyman-gpr-breech-plug-shape.116656/

I wonder how long the GPR flash channel is?
Look at how long the TC Renegade flash channel is here. --->>> https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/sidelock-patented-breech-fire-channel-cleaning.133759/

Are you using the RWS 1075 Plus magnum caps?

 

[KennBarrett]

The blockage that you are asking about would seem to be possibility, even if it's remote.
A photo and description of the GPR breech shows that it has a "drill point" design.
I don't know how narrow your cartridges are.
Why don't you just break them open and pour some of the powder in first?
AFAIK that was a requirement during the civil war, to tear the cartridge open with one's front teeth.

Here's a photo in Post #4 of a GPR plug.--->>> https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/lyman-patent-breech.82368/

Post #2 desxcribes it as being the same as in the photo: --->>> https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/lyman-gpr-breech-plug-shape.116656/

I wonder how long the GPR flash channel is?
Look at how long the TC Renegade flash channel is here. --->>> https://www.rokslide.com/forums/threads/sidelock-patented-breech-fire-channel-cleaning.133759/

Are you using the RWS 1075 Plus magnum caps?

Last question first: yes, they're RWS 1075 Plus #11 caps.

The diameter of the combustible paper tubes are formed around a 1/2" dowel, so their diameter should be close to a half inch. This allows them to easily slide down the barrel as well as to be inserted in .54 cal speed loaders I purchased from Track of the Wolf.

My son & I were involved for years in U.S. Civil War re-enacting, & we participated in target & silhouette competition with a local muzzleloader organisation. So yes, familiar with making & using the CW-era paper cartridges -- blanks & live rounds.

In addition to 1853 Enfield & 1861 Springfield reproductions, we used 1859 Sharps carbines (Pedersoli). It was the combustible cartridges I made for the Sharps that gave me the notion of applying combustible cartridges to the Lyman GPR.

As you probably know with the Sharps, the fire from the musket cap must travel quite a distance before being able to burn through the nitrated paper cartridge within the chamber. It must make a 90° turn after leaving the nipple, then another 90° enroute to the breech face cone. The pre-made live cartridge isn't compressed by a ramrod; in fact it has a small bit of air space around it within the stainless steel gas check in the chamber.

I DID have second thoughts though about safety factors behind using a pre-measured combustible cartridge in the GPR with its patent breech. It may work just fine in the Sharps, but Murphy's Law might say that the GPR isn't a Sharps!

Thank you very much for sharing the photos of the patent breeches. The one designed by TC borders on outrageous in my opinion, but hey, it works!

 

[Gus Chiggins]

I would think that ramming the ball down onto the paper cylinder would cause the paper to rupture and inadvertently fill the improved breech. Hence the good ignition. Perhaps load with same charge of powder without paper and mark at end of barrel on ramrod, then do same with paper wrapped charge and see how much difference there is. Then you'd know if the breech was a void.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I think I might try the paper cartridges in my Great Plains Rifle. Been wanting to try it for a while now... weather been crappy and been too busy to get out and shoot. I personally don't think the paper cartridge will be troublesome as the flame from the cap is only making 1 90 degree turn and then it's right at the main charge.

 

[MEHavey]

The Sharps flash channel may make a left turn, then a right turn ... but it emerges aimed directly at the powder.

The flash channel of the patent breech, however, enters the bottom of the reduced diameter breech section at right angles... and stops..
If the cartridge hasn't ruptured to put powder there, and is instead sitting almost a 1/2-3/4" inch away with the flame not even pointed a it.... forget it. .

Bottom line: pour the powder in conventionally, and let the patent breech do its job.

 

[drobs]

I'd give it a try. If for some reason it doesn't ignite, you can always remove the nipple and feed powder directly into the patent breech.
I did exactly that to clear a ball I dry balled with my GPR.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

My son & I were involved for years in U.S. Civil War re-enacting, & we participated in target & silhouette competition with a local muzzleloader organisation. So yes, familiar with making & using the CW-era paper cartridges -- blanks & live rounds.

Then simply follow loading procedure and make plain paper "blank" cartridges for the powder. Bite, tear, pour, and discard the then empty paper tube, then load the patched round ball.... well you know the drill, eh?

I see no advantage to using the nitrated paper tubes in the GPR, unless for some reason you're in a speed shooting contest...,
For you're not going to be able to with reasonable expectations, to load and fire a second shot at a wounded deer as the animal will have moved off, and you'd only be saving about 3 seconds (Perhaps) by dropping the entire unopened cartridge into the muzzle. Further, the nitrated paper is thinner than a standard paper cartridge, so is it not more susceptible to foul weather?

I use premeasured cartridges for powder for both my 20 gauge guns when hunting, and in my .40 rifle when going for squirrels.

LD

 

[KennBarrett]

Wow! Thanks so much for taking time to share your expertise & opinions! I'll definitely give Gus Chiggins' suggestion a try: drop in a pre-loaded, blank "cartridge." I agree, though, that as delicate as nitrated cigarette paper is, it will probably rupture each time patch & ball are rammed on top of it. The compression alone would well exceed the paper's tensile strength. Since I'm not dealing with an exact science type of procedure, drobs' suggestion would easily solve any ignition problem.

MEHavey has a good point too. Even with the spark travelling the distance it does & making two 90° turns in an 1859 Sharps carbine, it IS aimed directly at the powder charge (as you wrote) even if the combustible cartridge was made to close tolerances so that the falling breech never shaves off the cartridge end. Having all that loose BP before each shot can present a host of glitches in varying degrees. Moreover, the spark is from a four-winged musket cap rather than from a #11.

Jackrabbit1957: go for it! All we can do is try, eh?

Your thoughts are well-received, Loyalist Dave. The main reason behind all of this was to minimise follow-up shot time. I dearly enjoy muzzleloaders, but I thought there MUST be methods, however minor, that could accelerate the loading & reloading process. I'm confident many of you hold the opinion that numerous reproductions -- flintlock & percussion -- are works of art. "They don't make 'em like that anymore!"

I agree: nitrated cigarette paper would certainly be more susceptible to adverse affects of foul weather. That's why I carry pre-measured loads in convenient (though certainly not period-correct) speedloaders I purchase a from Track of the Wolf. Their diameter is sized at .54 cal. One minor asset in having pre-measured loads in nitrated paper is that the speed loader tubes remain BP dust-free! lol

For what it's worth, I'll relay positive as well as negative results afterward. As I mentioned, I have to at least try. Thanks again for your most welcomed input!

 

[arcticap]

For what it's worth, I'll relay positive as well as negative results afterward. As I mentioned, I have to at least try. Thanks again for your most welcomed input!

Can paper accumulate from shot to shot?
I wouldn't think so with that amount of powder, but then some folks have leftover tissue paper in the bottom of their revolver chambers from using glue.
Although that's not nitrated.
Go figure.

Are you nitrating the cigarette paper yourself?

 

[KennBarrett]

That's a good question, arcticap! No, I purchased several years ago an entire box of Zig Zag cigarette papers. We've (my son & I) used them for blanks in re-enacting/living history as well as for live rounds in the Sharps carbine. At first, the Sharps rounds were intentionally designed to be shaved at the end by the falling breech, but that became such a mess over time. So, pen was put to paper, & the rounds now always rest in the chamber with their ends firmly against the falling breech face.

We never had an incident in which unburned paper remained after firing. I'm not saying it couldn't occur; it just never did with the carbine.

Firing the .44 cal Remington Army reproduction revolver was quite another matter. We ALWAYS had paper residue even though the same Zig Zag nitrated cigarette paper was used. Apparently, as you implied, there just wasn't sufficient BP to completely consume the cartridge paper. We didn't use any glue, but instead used as tight a twist as possible, cut off the remaining "tail," then gently forced the stub into the BP contained within the cartridge.

Having "leftovers" in a revolver cylinder are relatively easy to clean, but it might be quite another matter at the bottom of a 32" or longer rifle or musket barrel. Thx for the input!

 

[arcticap]

That's my 2 cents, that any unburned paper may get pushed into the flash channel to block the next cap flash.

I was also curious about whether you were nitrating your own paper or not.
Some have said that chemicals are added to cigarette paper to inhibit it from burning too fast.
It may not be quite the same as nitrated paper, or home made nitrated cigarette paper anyway.
Whereas some folks have described trying to make home made nitrated cigarette paper, but that may not be necessary.

 

[KennBarrett]

I agree totally. Cigarette paper, though nitrated, is designed for a slow burn rather than like magician's flash paper that is consumed almost instantly. Amazing how "they" can design stuff like that!

While this idea of mine may have initially seemed viable, there are a number of considerations that may impede or even prohibit using combustible cartridges in a muzzloader format. Then again, maybe the contingencies may not be an issue at all. I've not found anything online pertinent to these procedures, so as I said, I have to try. That'll probably be after the Christmas holiday.

NON-nitrated paper cartridges are/were used in the famous ol' Brown Bess .75 cal. The process was similar to that used during the U.S. Civil War: cartridge was torn, powder poured into the barrel, then the ball AND remaining paper cartridge is rammed against the powder charge. I've found no references to remaining embers or leftover paper -- not to imply that didn't occur of course. Of course, that firearm is/was a flintlock smoothbore & has a different breech than the Lyman GPR.

 

[arcticap]

Every gun and paper cartridge may be different.
If I were going to try it I would load a few cartridges as blanks without a ball, just seat a wool or paper wad or over powder card really hard on top of the cartridge.
There's also a nipple priming device that will trickle some 4F into the nipple to give it extra flash, but then that may also clog some nipples with residue which may lead to needing to pick the nipple to clean it in between shots.

https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index...578,349,335/product_name/HP0503+Nipple+Primer

Kind of wonder if there's a reason why others don't mention having tried it.
You're a trail blazer!

 

[KennBarrett]

Yeah, a real trail blazer. lol Thx! I guess with all the great, welcomed opinions & information to consider -- & I certainly am doing that -- I'm hoping that by merely inserting the pre-made, combustible tube or cartridge into the muzzle, allowing it to drop to the breech, then ramming the patch & ball on top will result in reliable ignition. If it does, then I'd diminish my loading/reloading time by, what, 3 - 5 seconds in the least & maybe as much as 30 seconds at the most. The faster time is relative to reloading with a speed loader (except I wouldn't need to stow away the speed loader if the combustible cartridge was successfully used). The slower time refers to using a powder horn, a powder measure & well you know the rest.

I was even considering preparing the .530 balls by wrapping several of them with a pre-lubed patch & securing the patch in position with needle & thread. Then one would only need to retrieve ball & patch from one location, properly place it in the muzzle & ram it home. The only drawback I foresee in that would be that the patch lube would become dry & ineffective.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Unless a combustible cartridge was attached to a ball or bullet, as in a revolver cartridge, top speed may not be obtained. !!! One would be as well off just using a paper cartridge that you tear open, and pour the powder in. Then it wouldn't be so delicate either.

But, here's an alternative method that works well for me with my Lyman Plains Pistol. Using grocery bag paper, I make a tube, insert the ball, then add the powder charge, and fold the end over and give it a small dot of glue. Then I dip the ball end in hot melted, pure bee's wax, no lube. To load and fire, tear off the end, insert in muzzle, let the powder drop then ram down. I like to turn the cartridge over once the powder is in, but there's no need to do that. Then cap with an in-line capper. This is very fast.

The "interesting" thing is, they are quite accurate. Certainly accurate enough when that pack of wolves are closing in on me at 30 yards. They will stay on a paper plate at that range. 25 yards they produce groups for sure.

 

[MEHavey]

... when that pack of wolves are closing in on me at 30 yard

The [heck] w/ that GP
Give me an 870 Tactical at that point.



.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

The [heck] w/ that GP
Give me the 870 Tactical at that point.

Truth. However, sometimes I find myself in the woods with a longbow, and the GP as my sidearm. !!! But if I knew I was going to get jumped by a pack of wolves, heck with that 870, give my my M1!!!!!

 

[KennBarrett]

I have my trusty 870 -- great weapon.

So, Ugly Sauce, are you saying that the paper cartridge is rammed with the ball (.490?) & it serves as a paper patch? If I'm correct, then I thoroughly like your procedure! You're right: it would indeed be a quick load/reload.

I read somewhere that even newspaper was used in the 18th & 19th centuries for cartridges in such muskets as the venerable Brown Bess & Charleville, & the cartridge was rammed with the ball. I've used rolls of masking paper, cut to size, as paper cartridges for .58 cal 1853 Enfield & 1861 Springfield muskets. The procedural difference is that the projectiles are minie balls rather than round balls & are pre-greased with regular bullet lube such as SPG. Thanks a lot for sharing!

I truly like your method, especially in that it streamlines the cartridge-making process as well as the loading/reloading process.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

It is very fast, tear, pour, ram, cap. Yes the paper and ball are rammed down as one unit, hence the wax on the ball end. I use .490" ball.

I've never had burning cartridge paper on the ground after shooting, but that's probably a possibility. For sure, they are fast and easy to make.

I shoot a Brown Bess, and although I usually use patched 690" "chewed" ball, I keep some emergency cartridges of the same type for it in the pouch. Those are used just like the traditional Bess cartridges, and the ball is also rammed down in the paper. Normally I prime with a priming horn, but of course if the wolves were closing in I'd tear, prime from the cartridge, pour the powder down the barrel, and then ram the ball and paper down. Unlike the pistol, these are not near as accurate as my usual patched ball loads, and 30 yards might be the maximum range I'd use them at. In the pistol, as mentioned, they are good out to at least 30 yards.

Come to think of it, I made a few for my Jeager, but have never tried them. Just keep them in the pouch in case of the pack-attack.

With the Bess, even when using patched ball, in the field, I use paper cartridges for my powder. Come to think about it, I use paper powder cartridges for all my rifles, except when shooting out back to do load development/target work. I keep my patched ball in a loading block, around my neck...considering the weight of them balls, my loading block only holds two patched balls. That's my hunting set-up.

 

[KennBarrett]

Yeah, hovering at just under 500 grains each, the weight of those .690 balls would quickly add up! The Bess is a legend, & it's been used 'round the world. Did you purchase yours from Pedersoli?

"Pack attack!" Your preference for an M-1 is well-placed in that. The Mexican Grey Wolf is frequently seen AND/OR heard here in northern Arizona. Contrary to what some may believe, they're no dachshund! I spotted a mostly black one -- a BIG boy -- once wandering about a family's campsite. They weren't pleased to learn of the activity, but they were grateful to be informed of its proximity. City folks, mostly. lol

The Mexican Grey's howls & yelps during the night will definitely bring a camper to full alert, especially if they're relatively close. A Garand (even an M-1 carbine) &/or 870 seem mighty welcomed during such moments! Either those or three GPRs with a partner doing fast reloads.

 

[KennBarrett]

I assembled cartridge tubes from a masking paper roll with a diameter that provides a snug fit for a .530 ball. In fact, the ball needs a little coaxing by gently tapping the closed end so it'll slide to the bottom. I believe this type of fit will obviate a string constriction above the ball since nothing other than dust (if that) could venture beyond the ball's circumference, & the ball isn't lubed anyway. FF Goex is then poured into the tube from my powder measure. The completed cartridges at left are appropriately labelled with seven for 70 grains, 8 for 80 & 9 for 90 -- numbers to be read while the cartridge stands on its base. I haven't yet lubed the outside base since I don't have any beeswax or even paraffin. I do have mink oil & mink oil paste though, & I was going to try that until I can obtain another natural lube. I've read that others have had success with just mink oil, so perhaps that would be sufficient. "The proof's in the puddin'," as they say.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Looking good. Yep the "trick" is to get a good tight fit around the ball, where you have to push it in. I agree that in this instance, a string-thing is not needed. Most lubes, mink oil, etc. will migrate up the paper. I'm not sure if it just stains the paper, or actually contaminates any of the powder. I like to dip the end in pure bee's wax. Others have said that the bee's wax with a very low lube content does not migrate up the paper or contaminate the powder. ? Paraffin should work, and has been used as a bullet lube.

 

[KennBarrett]

Thanks! I rolled the cartridge tubes identically to the .58 cal minie & blanks (CW re-enacting/living history) but at a slightly smaller calibre & with an equally reduced trapezoid. I suppose the beeswax could migrate through the paper, but I'd tend to doubt it. If it did, then the small amount that made it into the powder charge would be negligible -- unless everything had to be super precise for target competition, eh?

Beeswax -- looks like I'll need to order online; it certainly isn't available in the small community near where I live. That's not a problem. As a natural material, beswax solidifies after application, & it should remain indefinitely viable. It's a great "system" you have; thank you for the advice/recommendations.

 

[KennBarrett]

Have some work to do! There are two levels of .54 cal cartridge tubes in the corrugated box for a total of about 240 - 250 thus far.