M-700 here we go again.

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As someone who is looking for a new hunting rifle and seriously considering a 700, I'll think twice. I'm sorry, but I don't care how much I like a brand or a particular model, if something other than pulling the trigger causes a round to discharge from the weapon, there is something seriously wrong. This isn't brand bashing, this is safety.

Ruger is a model company on how to handle a recall. From what it sounds, Remington decided not to own up to it's mistakes and therefore I can't in good conscious buy a rifle I'm not going to be comfortable carrying.

And yes, the rules should always apply to firearm handling, but they should not be used as an excuse for faulty manufacturing.
 
I'm really suprised more people have not heard of this possible situation with Remington 700's. I remember watching a CBS show of this very same problem back in 2000 or 2001. A small child was killed when his mom or dad took the safety off the rifle. She claimed her finger was not on the trigger.

I own a Remington and would consider another but I have found other bolt rifles that are more accurate and fit me better.
 
So bottom line. What does a 700 owner have to check or replace to make sure that the gun can't fire by flipping the safety or riggling the bolt? Whether or not Remington decides to fix it, what is the fix?
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The fix is in the Belk article I posted.


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Here is the deal guys Ruger, Blaser, Kimber and probably many others have had safety issues with their rifles. Blaser also had an issue where their rifle would discharge when the cocking lever was slid forward. They had a trigger pin that was corroding and failing. Blaser admitted they had a problem they paid up, recalled the rifles and fixed them for free. As have the others mentioned. Those are simple ethical business practices.

Remington has known about their issue for nearly 60 years with the M-700 they've chosen to deny it, they've tried to whitewash it, they never fixed the problem until 2006 and knowingly produced a rifle that had dangerous/deadly flaws in the trigger/safety group. The bolt lock recall DOESN'T FIX THE PROBLEM it simply makes it less dangerous to unload your rifle.
 
I want to make sure I understand this correctly...do the new 700's with the x-mark pro trigger suffer from this same defect or is this new trigger system the solution to the old problem? The reason I ask is because I just bought a new 700 two days ago and then I saw all this...so I want to make sure this rifle is going to be ok. Thanks for your help.
 
From what I understand, the x-mark pro trigger does fix the issue. I'm sure more knowledgeable people will chime in on this.
 
I have owned 3 remmies, never had one discharge without pulling the trigger, but I did have a 7mm rem mag that would NOT chamber a round, I wounder how that got past their QC people. Shame really because that CDL was the best looking rifle I have ever owned:(
 
springfield30-06 said:
I hope some politican doesn't get the bright idea to try and add some new gun control type of law though.
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i think this is an important point -- but not for your same reason. a lot of people have knee-jerk reaction to defend remington from the big bad media and blame the reported accidents on unsafe handling. the problem is that if the reports are true and if indeed there is a problem, then remington needs to man-up and fix it. if they continue to let it go, and they continue to receive "cover" and defense that is without merit from the gun community, then who knows -- it may very well come to a point where some politician decides they should stick their nose into it since nobody (i.e., remington) is fixing it themselves. instead of providing cover for them and defending them, perhaps there should be more pressure from within the gun community calling them out to fix the problems lest we all end up being affected by lawyers or politicians who may well force change (change much worse than a safety fix) down the road.

i watched the CNBC show, and i totally expected to see some anti-gun nonsense, but in the end it really seemed like legit reporting focused on the problem. perhaps that's because it was on CNBC and not MSNBC... but in any case i was surprised. the evidence was there, they even brought out the designer of the gun and a long paper trail of documents from those in-the-know.

i'll tell ya what else, that remington website to refute the claims of the reporter (showing him with the gun, bolt closed, and finger on the trigger) really rubbed me the wrong way -- take one image out of context and build your whole defense on making the messenger the focus. if they truly stand behind their gun and the reporting truly was inaccurate and the reported facts truly don't jive with reality, then speak to that in a reasoned manner instead of an attack on the reporter holding the gun for what looks like a promo shot for the show. i wanted to be on the side of remington, but the facts as reported in the show plus their response have turned me the other way.

one more thing -- for the countless number of folks who defend the gun and say "i've owned X number of this gun over Y years and never had issues" -- i'll repeat something i was told long ago: absence of proof is not proof of absence. in other words, just because you haven't had issues doesn't prove the issues don't exist.
 
I watched the show and it seemed to be fairly presented. The video of rifles firing when the safety was disengaged or bolt knob touched tells me all I need to know. The problem is real and needs to be addressed, even if only a small percentage of rifles are bad.

The bigger issue is Remington as a Company and how they dropped the ball by not correcting the problem many years ago. In contrast, Ruger, when confronted with a design flaw, introduced the New Model Blackhawk and offered to fix every single Old Model they ever produced. If Remington had stepped up and done the same we wouldn't be having this discussion.
 
Is there an issue? I believe that there is. Was the CNBC piece unbiased? Not totally... I think that report was pretty good, but it wasn't totally bias free. It was much better than what I was expecting, and I think that Remington should do something about it.

I am not an expert but from what I know is that if someone pulls the trigger while it's in the 'safe' position and then flips the safety off it will fire if it is defective. If that scenario is true CNBC never made that clear. One or two of the videos showed them pulling the trigger with the safety on and then taking the safety off without touching the trigger, resulting in firing of the rifle. Also, they made it sound like Remington made a campaign to follow the 'ten commandments of gun safety' to cover up the 700 trigger issue. Was that really an attempt to cover it up? We can't be sure, but nobody can argue that they are not a good idea to follow.

Like I said, this issue should have and should be corrected, but the way it was presented in the show some average Joe off the street might take it as the rifle might fire at any time even when the safety is engaged.

This is not an excuse for not following proper gun safety rules, but I also do not think it is an excuse for Remington to allow this to happen.
 
Just watched the CNBC report. Remington appears to have the deck stacked against it with all the internal memos and outside evidence. Interesting that Consumer Reports reviewed this gun and found the same issue.

SHAME ON CNBC though for trying to make Mr. walker, the designer of the trigger, feel guilty for the kid's death. That part was certainly unnecessary.
 
Sorry guys... I still cant figure out how to get the quotation box to work here...

LOONWULF, go here for great triggers with a safety that blocks the trigger. And they do have lefty options.

http://timneytriggers.com/sunshop/in...uct_detail&p=9
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Thats all I need to replace for peace of mind? 125 bucks? Is it a do it your selfer with some skills and tools job (I built my AR) or a gunsmith (does it need to be rebedded etc?)?


And for all those worried about Remington and guns because of this- Relax... Remington will probably sell 2 million "X mark pro" trigger replacements tonight, and Timney will get the other 3 million.
 
RomanDad said:
Sorry guys... I still cant figure out how to get the quotation box to work here...
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They have disabled the "quote" button because people would quote a huge post, or posts with pictures and not delete the parts of the post that were not relevant to their reply. Doing such wasted band width and caused longer page loads.
 
They have disabled the "quote" button because people would quote a huge post, or posts with pictures and not delete the parts of the post that were not relevant to their reply. Doing such wasted band width and caused longer page loads.
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Well then, I guess I'm relieved its not just me... :D
 
And for all those worried about Remington and guns because of this- Relax... Remington will probably sell 2 million "X mark pro" trigger replacements tonight, and Timney will get the other 3 million.
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True, but I personally believe that Remington should make it right and not profit from of it.

I have three 700's myself. One of them was made in 1980 and locks the bolt when the safety is on (I know that it is not main the issue presented, but makes it much more unsafe to unload). Safe handling procedures and knowledge of the problem will make me even more attentive as to where the muzzle is pointed, but I do not feel that I should have to foot the bill to fix any possibility of a discharge without touching the trigger which is a design flaw.
 
I wonder how many of those 'defective' 700 triggers were actually in 100% stock, unadjusted by the owner to render the pull weight lighter, form.....

certainly the swat teams would never adjust their triggers, as would a lot of hunters never adjust their Remington triggers......right.
 
True, but I personally believe that Remington should make it right and not profit from of it.

I have three 700's myself. One of them was made in 1980 and locks the bolt when the safety is on (I know that it is not main the issue presented, but makes it much more unsafe to unload). Safe handling procedures and knowledge of the problem will make me even more attentive as to where the muzzle is pointed, but I do not feel that I should have to foot the bill to fix any possibility of a discharge without touching the trigger which is a design flaw.
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I completely agree... in principle.

In reality, RomanMom saw the story too, and either the trigger or the gun is going in the trash.

I'll be sure to hang on to the receipt if they ever get their &^%$ together and do the right thing, but I'm not going to wait on that.
 
i just watched the CNBC show and i feel for the dad who son was killed. And i can appreciate that he has made it his life's mission to get Rem to admit and fix this issue. the good news is hes still pro gun and a shooter. doesst bring his kid back though. I really dont know what i would do if eaither my kids were killed.

his wife did have the muzzle pointed into the trailer and the boy was on the other side and it was a freak accident. if the muzzle had been pointed down or up it wouldnt have happened. same with the guy who shot his foot off or the guy who killed his neighbor lady that they profiled. all horrible accidents as the were unintentional of course.

but as pointed out, were the guns dirty ? were the triggers bubba'd ? who knows. it seems that Rem has known about this since day one in 1946. thats the problem i have. especially since the 5c fix back then, that they decided against due to cost is now a $100 per gun fix x 5,000,000 guns.

I own 2 pre 82 Rem 700s. they both have had the trigger tuned. they are very crisp and light. they both have the safety bolt lift lock. granted i have never tried to get this to happen as this is the first i have heard of this. i also have only ever had them loaded when pointed in an extremely safe direction. at the range and the few times hunting, I hunt with an empty chamber. I will definitely try to get this to happen next time at the range, just for my own curiosity. i may just put in an xpro trigger just for my own ease of mind.

I do like the fact that the .gov is forbidden from forcing safty standards on gun makers, but the gun community including Rems competitors need to put pressure on Rem to advertise this a lot more as it seems a full recall by Rem would bankrupt the company.

in the meantime, if you own a rem 700, either get an xpro trigger or never ever point the muzzle at something you dont want destroy or that you dont know what is behind it.
 
I Just watch Remington's VP on the NRA Feed.

His blame the messenger defense is self damning part

Show and tell how the trigger system is safe or

Man up and fix it.
 
I wonder how many of those 'defective' 700 triggers were actually in 100% stock, unadjusted by the owner to render the pull weight lighter, form.....

certainly the swat teams would never adjust their triggers, as would a lot of hunters never adjust their Remington triggers......right.
Click to expand...

To be fair......I know of one case where the trigger was never adjusted, and the gun fired when the safety was selected into the fire position.

It has never happened to mine, and I've used it steadily since 1972.
 
El Toro wrote:
...i just watched the CNBC show and i feel for the dad who son was killed. And i can appreciate that he has made it his life's mission to get Rem to admit and fix this issue. the good news is hes still pro gun and a shooter. doesst bring his kid back though. I really dont know what i would do if eaither my kids were killed.

his wife did have the muzzle pointed into the trailer and the boy was on the other side and it was a freak accident. if the muzzle had been pointed down or up it wouldnt have happened. same with the guy who shot his foot off or the guy who killed his neighbor lady that they profiled. all horrible accidents as the were unintentional of course.

but as pointed out, were the guns dirty ? were the triggers bubba'd ? who knows. it seems that Rem has known about this since day one in 1946. thats the problem i have. especially since the 5c fix back then, that they decided against due to cost is now a $100 per gun fix x 5,000,000 guns.

I own 2 pre 82 Rem 700s. they both have had the trigger tuned. they are very crisp and light. they both have the safety bolt lift lock. granted i have never tried to get this to happen as this is the first i have heard of this. i also have only ever had them loaded when pointed in an extremely safe direction. at the range and the few times hunting, I hunt with an empty chamber. I will definitely try to get this to happen next time at the range, just for my own curiosity. i may just put in an xpro trigger just for my own ease of mind.

I do like the fact that the .gov is forbidden from forcing safty standards on gun makers, but the gun community including Rems competitors need to put pressure on Rem to advertise this a lot more as it seems a full recall by Rem would bankrupt the company.

in the meantime, if you own a rem 700, either get an xpro trigger or never ever point the muzzle at something you dont want destroy or that you dont know what is behind it.
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Well thought out post.
I saw the program on CNBC. It was a bit biased, but the facts were well represented for the most part.
I'll stick to my guns and take the facts / opinions under advisement.
 
I'm not sure how the show could not appear to be biased if Remington refuses to take part. The reason they refused to take part is that their attempted rebuttal to the evidence won't stand up to examination. And, their attempt with the ten commandments to put the responsibility of dealing with their flawed design on the owner is just lame. They know good and well they had a problem, could have fixed it decades ago, and didn't.
 
I'm not sure how the show could not appear to be biased if Remington refuses to take part. The reason they refused to take part is that their attempted rebuttal to the evidence won't stand up to examination. And, their attempt with the ten commandments to put the responsibility of dealing with their flawed design on the owner is just lame. They know good and well they had a problem, could have fixed it decades ago, and didn't.
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I agree.... I keep hearing people saying "were the triggers adjusted"? I dont know... Remington didnt say they were so why should we jump to the conclusion they were? Remington has their big boy pants on. They can and should defend themselves, but theyre more interested in blaming the messenger (the reporter) than addressing their own internal documents like the "Screwdriver test" that prove there is a flaw.

Remington's response was "They were poorly maintained or user error by inexperienced shooters". Ok... The videos of the guns going off by themselves is clearly not "User Error by inexperienced shooters."

Now people are saying "maybe the guns were dirty". Im sorry... But guns get dirty... If the design is such that the gun will fire without the trigger being pulled when it gets dirty, thats an unacceptable design. How dirty is dirty enough to mess up the mechanism? These are OUTDOOR hunting rifles.... Theyre going to be exposed to dirt, and rain, and dust.... And the normal fouling of firing. I can understand a gun that REFUSES to fire when it gets dirty (and yeah, that can be a problem, but not nearly as bad as one that fires without warning) but not the opposite.

Its like hearing the brakes went out on a new car and the manufacturer saying "you didnt wax it enough." One should have nothing to do with the other...
 
I was only able to watch part of the show, but looking at what I did, looking at Remington's response, I just have a hard time supporting a company that would knowingly put their customers at risk. The new trigger on the 700s might have fixed the problem, replacing the trigger with the timney might fix the problem, but at the end of the day, I don't think I want to support a company who doesn't care enough to fix a known and documented flaw with their product.
 
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