M&P 40 slide release lever

[v35]

The slides on all my autoloaders can be released by thumbing the slide release lever down. I don't usually do that though, since I prefer the slingshot method using my support hand.

When the slide of my M&P 40 locks back on an empty mag, and after inserting a loaded mag, the slide release is very difficult to move down. I can thumb it down 95% of the way but then it catches and binds right on the very edge of the slide release lever. It has to go another two or three thousandths of an inch but it's as if there is a burr or something preventing it from doing so. Feeling around with my fingernail though doesn't reveal anything unusual. It's a sharp edge but I think it's supposed to be that way.

I know the problem is with the slide because if I exchange the slide with an identical M&P the problem goes with the slide.

I am very tempted to take a file to it and gently radius the rear of the slide lock slot, but that's probably not a good idea, is it?

 

[Walt Sherrill]

It may be that your recoil spring is too strong. (If you swapped slides and recoil springs assemblies, you can't be sure that the slide is the problem...) If you kept your recoil spring assembly, when you swapped the slide, your test might be valid. It would have been interest to know if your slide and the recoil spring from the other gun let it work right...

If you find, for sure, that it is the slide (notch), use very fine sand paper and not a file, and just polish it up for a bit, putting it backj on the gun and trying it periodically. You can't really put metal back on if you go too far.

In the meantime use the hand-over technique (hand over the top of the slide, using the sights as a way to engage the slide), or use your off hand to release the slide. (You can use several fingers to find and press the slide stop lever.) I've come to use that method most of the time, any way. The sling shot forces you to move the gun away from your target, and not done perfectly, you can get chambering problems. (The US Military no longer trains troops to use the sling-shot method... they focus on using the slide release.)

 

[v35]

Interesting, I didn't know about the US Military training to use the slide release. I was trained the other way (hand-over technique) and the law of primacy being what it is I can only assume I would revert to that in a stressful situation. The technique I was trained to use racks the slide back and releases it rapidly. No easing it forward or anything, and that's what works for me. The slide release lever on the M&P is kind of small and hard to find anyway.

So, it's not that important an issue for me, but I would still like it fixed. I may try swapping the recoil springs, but right now I am awaiting a response from S&W before I mess with it myself. Thanks to your advice I won't use a file.

The gun was purchased "used" but has never been fired. If I have to pay to get it fixed I suppose that's OK.

It would have been interest to know if your slide and the recoil spring from the other gun let it work right...

Swapping just the slide makes it work right. Put that slide on the other gun, and the other gun exhibits the same problem. That's the reason I'm 99% sure it's the slide... the notch in the slide, specifically. To the naked eye and fingernail they look and feel identical though.

 

[mgmorden]

Mind is the same way. I have to push the ever loving snot out of it to release the slide lock with my thumb if I want to release it - but at the same time the gun auto-forwards easier than any other gun I own.

Just personally, I just overhand it myself. You can always count on that. Like this, some guns just don't easily release the slide using the lever. Some guns (like the CZ-52) don't even HAVE a lever. If you practice the overhand "slingshot" it'll always work regardless of what you're shooting.

 

[rcmodel]

Unless you are shooting a 1911 with one of those plastic '1/8" thick recoil buffers' on the guide rod.

They totally negate the overhand slingshot slide release working as designed.

rc

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Interesting, I didn't know about the US Military training to use the slide release. I was trained the other way (hand-over technique) and the law of primacy being what it is I can only assume I would revert to that in a stressful situation. The technique I was trained to use racks the slide back and releases it rapidly. No easing it forward or anything, and that's what works for me. The slide release lever on the M&P is kind of small and hard to find anyway.

An acquaintance, who works (or did so for several years -- I haven't talked with him recently) as a small arms instructor for Special Ops troops (Special Forces, Delta Force) at Ft. Bragg told me that the DOD changed their basic handgun training some years back. The change came about after they found that many troops in combat were having problems with their handguns not going fully into battery after reloads. The weather, the climate, the widespread use of gloves (the environment was not friendly) may have all contributed to the problem. A soldier would slingshot to release the slide, have a failure to chamber, and then have to slam it home or rack the slide again... That resulted in time lost and sometimes wasted ammo -- in situations where the loss of either might be critical.

It's been a long-held contention that using the slide release required fine motor skills while using the slingshot method did not. Most experts now say that for the slingshot approach to work consistently, it requires essentially the same level of fine motor skills as any other technique . If it works for you, continue it -- but under stress any method can be a problem.

The biggest disadvantage of the slingshot method is that it forces the shooter to pull the gun away from the target. Other approaches allow the shooter to keep the gun more closely aligned with the target (or even ON the target), important if you want to fire the next shot quickly and accurately.

Some shooters and instructors recommend using the off hand at the end of the reloading sequence, to move up and use several fingers together (as a "claw", in effect) to find and depress the slide release. I was never one of the top shooters, but when I was competing more regularly I found that this approach worked for me and I was just as fast (or faster to the next shot). Then, too, only a few of my weapons (a Glock 34 among them) really worked with well using the strong-hand thumb on the slide stop/release.

The Tap-Rack-Bang drill suggests that you need to be familiar with the slingshot technique -- but I suspect you CAN use almost any of the release methods for that drill if you practice a bit.

 

[v35]

Thank you for that explanation. The fine motor skills argument was drilled into me also, but clearly there are reasons to justify either technique.

My primary motivation is to have both options available, should one become unavailable. I could lose my thumb, for example, or use of my non-shooting hand (though I have been taught some interesting techniques to cope with that also).

... move up and use several fingers together (as a "claw", in effect) to find and depress the slide release.

I will consider that. In the case of this particular problem, I found that I can apply enough force to release the slide if I depress both sides of the slide release simultaneously (since it's ambidextrous on this particular gun). But with just my right thumb... forget it.

 

[v35]

Couple of interesting threads along the same lines:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=755804

According to S&W, the proper technique for releasing the slide is:

"Pull the slide to the rear and release it, allowing it to carry fully forward. This strips a cartridge from the magazine and seats it in the chamber of the barrel."

I totally understand and agree with that BTW. The manual does not indicate anywhere the slide release is intended to be used in the manner I describe. If I didn't have two identical guns I wouldn't have given it any more thought

Another one repeating the same advice:

http://mp-pistol.com/new-users/43925-slide-lock-magazines-hard-load.html

 

[Walt Sherrill]

... I just overhand it myself. You can always count on that. Like this, some guns just don't easily release the slide using the lever. Some guns (like the CZ-52) don't even HAVE a lever. If you practice the overhand "slingshot" it'll always work regardless of what you're shooting.

You're right about some gun slides not being easy to release using the lever; I had a pricey SIG P226 X-Five and a P220 Super Match, both of which required the equivalent of a bumper jack to release the slide by pressing the lever. SIG's customer service was no help.

Folks who shoot the Beretta M9 and other models based on the 92 design will tell you that using the overhand method can (generally will) decock the weapon.

The Kahr manual for the semi-auto DAO pistols tells you NOT to slingshot those models, but to use the slide stop/slide release lever. They say to do otherwise may cause cause the slide NOT to go fully into battery. You'll find this mentioned when Kahr users talk about their weapons. The Glock manual says, "Insert a new magazine and then either push the slide stop lever (27) downwards (see photo), or pull the slide slightly backwards and allow it to spring forwards" Glock apparently doesn't care. That's probably why an OVERSIZE lever is available as an option. CZ says the same thing: "Thumb down the slide stop with the shooting hand (Fig. 4), or draw back the slide with the other hand and allow it to snap forward (Fig. 3). The pistol is again loaded and ready to fire." CZ doesn't care, either. I pulled out my old S&W 4006 manual, and it says to press down on the lever to chamber the fist round.

Using the lever to release the slide is not as uncommon as one might think. And what the lever is called doesn't dictate how it can be used. If it did, I'd argue that there wouldn't be extended or oversized slide stop levers.

Generally, the handover works, but it CAN vary by gun.

 

[rsrocket1]

It's a slide lock, not a slide release lever. For the first two years I was using it as a slide release lever until after about 20k rounds (2,000 "releases"), the lever broke off in the middle of shooting. On the old versions, the right angle on the "lever" is a weak point. The newer ones with the tactile reset are beefed up. Fortunately, the "lock" function is ambidexterous and you can use the other side to lock the slide back. S&W replaced it at no charge and they are less than $20 if you want one as a spare, but it really should be used as a slide lock and not a slide release.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

And if the trigger return spring breaks, would that also mean it shouldn't be used to return the trigger to its forward position? I've had a few of those break over the years in several different guns.

Why do so many gun makers (and after-market vendors) offer extended slide stops or oversize levers that make it's use in the role of releasing the slide so much easier? Why is it even there? You really don't need it if you are willing to just pull back on the slide. Thousands of folks do use it as a relese, and you hear about a lot of things breaking on various guns, but seldom about a slide stop lever breaking.

As I noted in my earlier reply, what a part is called doesn't always dictate how it can be or should be used. If you don't want to use it THAT way -- i.e., as a slide release -- you don't have to.

 

[rsrocket1]

Fine, break it. Your M&P, your inconvenience.

All the advice in the world won't fix _.. .. .__. .._ _ ...
.... .. .... ..

 

[Walt Sherrill]

If, as you say, the newer versions are BEEFED up, it would seem that even S&W anticipates it being used as a release in some cases. Why else would they beef it up?

 

[imashooter]

If the only difference is the slide swapping, clean the notch a little with a couple of fine needle file swipes. If you have a dremel and bullet style cratex (fine or medium/fine), I'd opt for that first. Even fine-medium sandpaper on a pencil, etc will probably do it.

 

[v35]

If you find, for sure, that it is the slide (notch), use very fine sand paper and not a file, and just polish it up for a bit, putting it backj on the gun and trying it periodically.

Walt, you nailed it perfectly. I grew impatient with S&W and did exactly what you described. After protecting all other areas of the slide with plastic tape, I wrapped some fine emery cloth around a tool with a rectangular section (which happened to be a file) and c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y drew it across the rear face of the slide release notch. After reassembly, the effort to release the slide using the slide lock lever improved by about 50%.

I repeated that exercise, and it improved by 100%. It's now perfect

In doing so I applied so little force that I could not have removed even a thousandth of an inch of material. Like drawing a bow across violin strings I didn't think it would accomplish anything at all. I removed perhaps half a thousandth, but I doubt it was even that much. There were no visible filings whatsoever.

For anyone else attempting this, the rear face of the slide release notch is not machined at right angles to the slide. It is at a very acute angle relative to the face of the slide, and I did not want to change that angle even the slightest amount.

Thank you for your suggestion. It was a lot simpler than shipping the M&P back to S&W, even if they were interested in addressing the issue (which remains unknown).

 

[v35]

resolution

S&W replied to my question and suggested the reason for the difficult to release slide lever was due to having stored it unused for so long. They recommended simply using it, and lubrication, in order to "break it in". Makes sense to me.

Notably, they did not object to my stated expectation of the slide lock release lever's function at all.

In any event it's working completely to my satisfaction now. I conclude that doing what I did performed the same actions as simply shooting it would have done, given sufficient usage.

 

[Plan2Live]

NEVER mind the slide stop vs slide release argument, get Tap -Rack-Bang out of your head, it's Tap-Rack-READY. Bang isn't always required after Tap-Rack. Keep practicing Tap-Rack-Bang and you'll need to keep your lawyer's number on speed dial.

Back to slide release options, the automatic slide release on mag seating with the Berretta 92 and the Sig 2022 comes in handy too once you master that technique.

And finally, you are saying the "Spec Ops" folks are worried about the slide going into battery on an overhand slide release but they all still do that press check thing without a simulate concern?

 

[Walt Sherrill]

And finally, you are saying the "Spec Ops" folks are worried about the slide going into battery on an overhand slide release but they all still do that press check thing without a simulate concern?

If your comments above were a response to my statements in reply #6, above please note that I didn't write anything like that. I'm not sure anyone else did, either.. If not, skip on to the next response...

Otherwise, please note:

1) I said nothing about Spec Ops troops being worried about anything and 2) I certainly said nothing about their use of the hand-over slide release or any other slide release method.

3) I did say that the Department of Defense (DoD) had found that some TROOPS in Afghanistan and Iraq were having problems with weapons not going fully into battery when the slingshot technique was used. 4) I also noted that the DoD had changed it's handgun training so that the slingshot technique was no longer taught. (The only reason Spec Ops personnel were mentioned in the first place was to note that the person who conveyed the info to me about the Dod changing it's training worked for the DoD (as an instructor with Spec Forces and Delta personnel.)

I don't know whether the DoD considers the hand-over method acceptable or not, but I don't think it's included in the DoD handgun training as an option (which is primarily focused on the Beretta M9).

That said, I do know that 5) a number of civilians using that technique in competition have found that using the hand-over technique with some variants of the M92 (which would include the M9) can cause the shooter to unintentionally decock the weapon in some situations. That's has nothing to do with the slide going into battery. The handover technique certainly works well with many weapons..

NEVER mind the slide stop vs slide release argument, get Tap -Rack-Bang out of your head, it's Tap-Rack-READY. Bang isn't always required after Tap-Rack. Keep practicing Tap-Rack-Bang and you'll need to keep your lawyer's number on speed dial.

I also wrote -- repeated here -- that "The Tap-Rack-Bang drill suggests that you need to be familiar with the slingshot technique -- but I suspect you CAN use almost any of the release methods for that drill if you practice a bit."

I understand your point about Tap-Rack-Ready, but it seems to me that the sole intent of the T-R-B drill is to clear your weapon and get the next round off as quickly as possible -- because implicitly, your life depends on it. The BANG part is a critical piece of the exercise. But, when that drill was first presented to me, I wasn't told to unthinkingly pull the trigger. I had to have a target and a need to shoot it! Regardless of whether you call it T-R-B or T-R-R, if you're not READY to shoot (for lack of target or lack of motive) you certainly shouldn't pull the trigger.

But either way -- T-R-B or T-R-R -- you can use the slide stop, the handover, or the slingshot method.

.

 

[Plan2Live]

Many times merely presenting the firearm will make the assailant change their mind (stop the threat). If you draw and attempt to fire but have a malfunction, there is a reasonable chance the assailant has no idea you pulled the trigger unproductively yet they are now convinced you are not a desireable target and have broken off the attack. We often demonstrate this in class and an assailant can drop a knife and turn around or raise their hands faster than even our most proficient instructors can perform a T-R-R. In a world with cameras everywhere we can't afford to make a mistake and shot a non-threat. Since we have newbies dropping by this site regularly I always try to point out the difference when it comes up in discussions.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Many times merely presenting the firearm will make the assailant change their mind (stop the threat). If you draw and attempt to fire but have a malfunction, there is a reasonable chance the assailant has no idea you pulled the trigger unproductively yet they are now convinced you are not a desireable target and have broken off the attack. We often demonstrate this in class and an assailant can drop a knife and turn around or raise their hands faster than even our most proficient instructors can perform a T-R-R. In a world with cameras everywhere we can't afford to make a mistake and shot a non-threat. Since we have newbies dropping by this site regularly I always try to point out the difference when it comes up in discussions.

I think you've offered us a very artificial best case scenario to help make your point. You can't demonstrate what a real world assailant will do in the class room. One bad guy might run away, another might be drugged up, or worse, experienced -- and not care that you're armed. A third may be close enough to come at you while you're trying to clear your weapon. While just presenting your weapon WILL sometimes deter a potential assailant -- that scenario wouldn't call for either the T-R-R or T-R-B drill.

You would only use the T-R-R or T-R-B drill if you've already decided that LETHAL FORCE was necessary and you've pulled the trigger at least once! In that case, I think it's silly to think you're likely to have time to REASSESS anything!

If it turns out you've got the extra critical time, you should certainly use it to reassess -- being able to do so suggests that you've cleared your weapon and the risk has been reduced enough that you have time that wasn't there before you pulled the trigger. But if you had a failure to fire and needed to do a clearance drill, when you believed lethal force was necessary, time may not be on your side...

.