Frustration with new M&P .40 and .45 slide release design

[Walt Sherrill]

I'm referring to "old-style" SLINGSHOT, grasping the rear of the slide LIKE you would grab the pocket of a slingshot.

For this discussion, I think the term can apply to the overhand method, too. The Overhand method COULD lead to the same problems as the older slingshot method -- in that you must PRECISELY release the slide using the overhand method to avoid the problems described in my earlier response; with heavy gloves or a non-optimal release, etc., there could be issues.

That said, the Overhand method CAN let you keep the gun positioned on target, so that's a big plus over the older style.

I have been a big CZ fan over the years, and because of the slide-in-frame design and went to the overhand method; CZs give a bit less slide to grasp otherwise. Using that method I found I sometimes had problems when doing clearance drills - as my hand got in the way of the rounds that needed to be cleared. I think smaller guns present a problem with the overhand method, too: your hand just COVERS to much! I pinch the rear of the slide when I do a clearance drill, now, if only because I want to SEE what's going on, too, and don't want my hand getting in the way.

All of these methods discussed -- including using the slide release -- have drawbacks. But, if you hit the release/stop lever, it will give you a uniform, crisp, and technically sufficient release. And THAT, I think, is what's behind the US military's training change.

As I said, folks should try each of these methods and see what works best for them. I think too many folks read or participate in these discussions, say "that makes sense" and pick one based on the "theory" -- but never try to see if theory and reality really agree.

 

[sleepyone]

Quote:
Very interesting. I have always heard it called a slide release and used it as such. JMB had it right from the get-go.

You might want to check where else your sources might have lead you astray

You know that JMB did not design the 1911 to be carried cocked-n-locked (Condition 1), right?

The US Army forced him to redesign the pistol to add a thumb safety he had not included in his original submission. His original design relied on the grip safety as the primary. Condition 1 was not a common carry method until 30-40 years later

9mmepiphany, I have read many of your posts over the years so I know you probably have forgotten more about semi-automatic pistols than I know. However, when I said he had it right from the start, I was referring to the way the 1911 slide stop works; not the safety. You are correct that there were several changes to the 1911 before it became the 1911 as most people know it. According to a book I have on Browning, some changes were made by Browning such as redesigning parts so they performed several functions, thereby reducing the total number of parts and simpliying the arm which was covered in a 1913 patent, and like you said, other changes were required by the U.S. Army. From the picture in my book, it appears the slide stop as JMB designed it was not nearly as pronounced as current 1911s, so whose to say that I would have been able to use the slide stop as a slide release like my current 1911? I have only seen one "original" 1911 and I probably would not enjoy shooting it near as much as current models.

In response to your last question about sling shotting the slide and overhand method. I am speaking of two different methods. Pinching the slide between the thumb and index finger to pull it from the rear would be sling shotting as I have heard it as well. I prefer that over the overhand method.

As Walt Sherrill mentioned:

(When you watch master-level shooters in combat-type competitions, you see that nearly all = of them leave the gun up, pointed at target, at eye level, insert the mag while it's in that position; they then release the slide using the slide stop/release lever. Some use the strong hand thumb, but not all.)

There is no way I could do that with the slide stop on my M&Ps with just my thumb. That is still the fastest way for me to reload my 1911s. I don't shoot competitively, but I try various methods and I am always fastest when loading the magazine with my off hand and using the slide stop with my thumb. The only faster way I have found for me is when I "slam" the magazine, which from what others have said in this thread is not a designed feature and does not work 100% of the time.

I found that dropping the empty mag, and using the offhand to insert the fresh mag, and then just moving the fingers on up to release the slide is almost as fast as using the strong thumb, and you do NOT have to change your grip (required for me with some guns) or move the gun's bore dramatically away from the target (as IS the case when using the slingshot method).

If you are referring to using the index finger and thumb to work both sides of the slide stop, I was messing around with that last night and thought it might be an option too.

 

[Bovice]

Every time you release your slide using the lever, your slide loses 5k rounds worth of service life and it promotes finger cancer.

Naaaaaaaaahhhhht!

Either get stronger thumbs or slingshot it.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

(When you watch master-level shooters in combat-type competitions, you see that nearly all = of them leave the gun up, pointed at target, at eye level, insert the mag while it's in that position; they then release the slide using the slide stop/release lever. Some use the strong hand thumb, but not all.)

There is no way I could do that with the slide stop on my M&Ps with just my thumb. That is still the fastest way for me to reload my 1911s. I don't shoot competitively, but I try various methods and I am always fastest when loading the magazine with my off hand and using the slide stop with my thumb. The only faster way I have found for me is when I "slam" the magazine, which from what others have said in this thread is not a designed feature and does not work 100% of the time.

I have an M&P Pro that was worked over by Speed Specialties before I bought it, and release the slide using the slide stop/slide release is a piece of cake. Maybe you need a lighter recoil spring? As noted below, it can help with some problems.

I recently picked up a SIG P-226 X Five Competition in .40 (SA only). The slide stop on that gun is sooooo stiff I must BOTH pull the slide and press the release. Pressing with both thumbs wouldn't do it!

There was no quick release of the slide with that gun. It's apparently NOT typical, as other folks with SIG X-Fives don't have this problem. I had my gunsmith try to work with it, and he broke the recoil spring bar -- a part of the multi-part guide rod assembly. He fabricated a part that did the job, but I contacted SIG to get the right part. They said they don't have a big stock of all parts for my X-FIVE (SA) in the US, and it would be a while, but they'd send a new one.

I tried the lightest recoil springs for the 226 from Wolff, but that didn't help -- I think the X-Five uses different springs. SIG said they didn't have lighter springs. A week or so ago, several months after my first call to SIG, a package came -- nothing to show where it came from, but it was a new recoil spring and it looked like one for a 226; it had different color (orange?) paint on it. I installed it, and I can now release the slide with one hand -- but it's still not easy. Nice gun, except for this issue -- and this has to be resolved, one of these days. A lighter recoil spring made a big difference. That might help with your gun, too.

For my other guns, I use three fingers (fore-, middle-, and ring-) as a unit to release slides on my other guns. That won't work with this SIG X-FIVE, but does well on all my other guns. (The slide stop/slide release, and the safety are so close together that any method is a problem...)

.

 

[9mmepiphany]

As I said, folks should try each of these methods and see what works best for them. I think too many folks read or participate in these discussions, say "that makes sense" and pick one based on the "theory" -- but never try to see if theory and reality really agree.

On this we agree completely. If I hadn't tried all the methods described...for at least several months each, I wouldn't feel qualified to render a very creditable opinion

For this discussion, I think the term can apply to the overhand method, too. The Overhand method COULD lead to the same problems as the older slingshot method -- in that you must PRECISELY release the slide using the overhand method to avoid the problems described in my earlier response; with heavy gloves or a non-optimal release, etc., there could be issues.

I can only presume that we learned or use the overhand method differently, as I haven't encountered any of these issues...granted, the CZ has issues all it's own with the slide riding inside the frame.

1. After I have inserted the magazine, I bring my support hand up while my strong hand rotates the gun counter-clockwise.
2. I grasp the rear serrations, with my hand behind the ejection port, with the base of my thumb on one side and the fingers on the other.
3. The I drive the gun back out as my support hand moves to the rear.
4. When the slide reaches it's rearmost travel, it is pulled out of my support hand (which continues to my chest)
5. I've always thought of it as a gross motion as opposed to a precise one

 

[9mmepiphany]

(When you watch master-level shooters in combat-type competitions, you see that nearly all = of them leave the gun up, pointed at target, at eye level, insert the mag while it's in that position; they then release the slide using the slide stop/release lever. Some use the strong hand thumb, but not all.)

If you watch Travis Tomasie reload...he is supposed to be the fastest...you see that he rotates the frame so that he can look the magazine in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAFxgQmxbGI

 

[sleepyone]

Either get stronger thumbs or slingshot it.

I'm sure you were being sarcastic, but guys that have had to deal with carpal tunnel and/or cubitul tunnel (the ulnar nerve) liev in a different reality. Multiple surgeries, drugs, therapies, treatments etc... have not cured my problem and my grip strength is slowly deteriorating. I need all the help I can get when it comes to ease of use.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

9mmepiphany:

Your method is different from what I've observed or heard described -- and requires moving the gun MORE than some. When I've seen the Overhand method done and discussed, it's generally about grasping the slide at the rear OVER THE TOP of the slide, and then racking the slide. But you're correct in that the way you do it, it's a "less precise" approach than the others -- and that's good.

Your method should allow a more trouble-free release than the conventional slingshot method, and it's probably better than racking the slide with the hand-over grasp, but your method still moves the gun a LOT more than I'd consider optimal. I do think YOUR method is much better than either of those methods.

I do like the consistent release of the slide using the stop lever -- and I think it's easier to keep the gun on target or closer to on target that way (unless you're using my SIG X-FIVE...). I'll have to try your way the next time I go to the range.

RE: Travis Tomasie. Yes. The guy I took instruction from did that too -- but only tilted it slightly. Keeping the gun high, in front of the eyes, allowed him to guide the mag in -- but most of them probably aren't watching that closely: muscle memory seems to be what's controlling that movement, and it arguably done too quickly for eye sight to have much role in the activity. I'd be very surprised if they couldn't do it just as quickly blindfolded...

 

[mgmorden]

I have an M&P Pro that was worked over by Speed Specialties before I bought it, and release the slide using the slide stop/slide release is a piece of cake. Maybe you need a lighter recoil spring? As noted below, it can help with some problems.

Be careful with lightening the recoil spring on an M&P. It can cause other problems (with striker-fired designs in general really). Unlike a hammer-fired gun, on a striker fired gun the recoil spring has the overcome the striker spring to close the action. On my particular gun just dropping from stock (16 lbs) to 14 lbs was enough to start causing the action to fail to return to battery about once every 50 to 75 shots - even when running a lightened striker spring.

Dan Burwell (one of the better known M&P gunsmiths) specifically recommends sticking to the stock spring weight on the M&P, which I've personally done and eliminated my problems.

On a hammer fired gun there is no other spring counter-acting the recoil spring so you can go a bit lighter. Plenty of people shooting STI 2011's seem to go down to 13 or even 11 lbs without issue.

 

[9mmepiphany]

it's generally about grasping the slide at the rear OVER THE TOP of the slide, and then racking the slide.

This is one of the short comings of posting on a forum as opposed to verbally communicating; I am talking about grasping the slide over the top.

My thumb is on the left slide of the slide (pointing toward the rear) and my fingers are on the right side. I do bring my muzzle off the target...or at least don't try to keep it on target. I've tried it both ways....on and off target...and bring you gun into my sphere of dexterity, as Tomasie is doing...allows for a measurably, on a timer, faster and more importantly reliable reload.

I've trained with the overhand grasp more as I will ofter teach with different platforms where the slide stops are positioned in differing locations. The other advantage...I don't buy into the fine motor skill argument either...is that it allows for instances where the slide has failed to stay back before the fresh magazine is inserted

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Be careful with lightening the recoil spring on an M&P. It can cause other problems (with striker-fired designs in general really). Unlike a hammer-fired gun, on a striker fired gun the recoil spring has the overcome the striker spring to close the action. On my particular gun just dropping from stock (16 lbs) to 14 lbs was enough to start causing the action to fail to return to battery about once every 50 to 75 shots - even when running a lightened striker spring.

Dan Burwell (one of the better known M&P gunsmiths) specifically recommends sticking to the stock spring weight on the M&P, which I've personally done and eliminated my problems.

Good points. I've not encountered that sort of problem with a striker-fired weapon, yet, but it is something for me to keep in mind if I start encountering function problems after having lightened a recoil spring.

Most problems, from my experience, come from people having taken it the other way -- going to HEAVIER springs. (That is not meant to be seen as a disagreement with the points you're making, above.)

I wonder if the OP should just contact S&W and talk with them about the problem -- there may be something a local gunsmith can do to make the effort required to release the slide less difficult WITHOUT changing springs -- like polishing the rear of the release lever where it interacts with the slide.

.

 

[Skylerbone]

To the OP's question of where metal was removed I filed lightly on the slide detent which had something of a burr and smoothed out the contact surface of the lever itself. Either might have been enough alone and if you're considering trying I'd recommend starting with the lever.

I've gone through a few bouts with tendonitis requiring extensive physical rehab and cortisone injections so I have some frame of reference for when easy tasks become impossible. I went from 60 lb. dumbbells to 2 lb. and they hurt but I never did lose grip strength. That said, the starboard lever would flex till it bottomed out. It simply could not release the slide.

 

[ny32182]

I've run 18k through my M&P with a 13lb recoil spring and stock striker spring, and as long as it is either clean or lubed it runs 100%. If neither of those conditions are met it will have the occassional failure to return all the way to battery.

Unlike some other guns, it will NOT run well with ~129pf ammo, the stock recoil spring, and any hint of limpwrist... I have seen exactly the same behavior in multiple examples now.

 

[dsm]

Maybe design and manufacture a extended version of some sort. Then market and sell it.

 

[sleepyone]

I appreciate all the feedback and hope to try the different methods discussed. I don't plan on changing recoil springs, but I am interested in installing an Apex trigger kit and want to get some feedback on the pros and cons. I'm going to start a new thread though.

 

[dsm]

Apex Tactical is definitely worthwhile.

 

[dsb1829]

One of the guys I shoot with told me to ride the slide stop during reloads for the m&p guns. I tried it and discovered that it works well. Jostling from mag insertion greatly reduces force to drop the lever. I am still getting used to the technique, but when done right it is fast and easy on the thumb.

 

[9mmepiphany]

told me to ride the slide stop during reloads for the m&p guns.
...Jostling from mag insertion greatly reduces force to drop the lever.

That just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

Wouldn't it be easier to learn to not jostle the mag insertion at all and cause the slide to close on it's own

 

[justice06rr]

I think its probably just your weak fingers. All the pistols i've owned have about the same resistance on the slide stops. (XD's, M&P's, Glock's, etc)

Yes, the M&P also has the function that automatically moves the slide back into battery after inserting a magazine when the slide is locked back, so there is nothing wrong with yours. My M&P9 and M&P40 both did this. A very good feature for quick reloads.