I just got my permit to carry a concealed weapon, and plan to carry the M&P9c. My choice is whether to stick with the contrast sights, get it with factory night sights, or upgrade later to sights other than what it's sold with. I'd appreciate your advice.
M&P9c - Contrast or Night Sights for CCW?
- Thread starter feldgrun
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ForumSurfer
Member
None of the above. I lake warren tactical sevigny carry sights. Tritium dot up front and no dot or a single dot in the rear. Same sights you'll find on the pro 5", except with fiber optic up front. These are my favorite ever since briefly owning a pro 5". Before that, I preferred Heinie in the same configuration.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=...EN TACTICAL SERIES/Product/S-W-M-P-SIGHT-SETS
The plain black rear is by far the fastest to acquire out of anything I've ever used. Much faster than (for me) than tritium or fiber optic rears. Plus, it really makes the front sight "pop" into your vision quickly.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=...EN TACTICAL SERIES/Product/S-W-M-P-SIGHT-SETS
The plain black rear is by far the fastest to acquire out of anything I've ever used. Much faster than (for me) than tritium or fiber optic rears. Plus, it really makes the front sight "pop" into your vision quickly.
Stasher1
Member
Ultimately, it depends on your budget. If you can't swing the extra $60 for the factory night sights, stick with the stock ones. If you can afford a bit more, buy it with the stock sights and replace them with a decent set of night sights in a configuration that suits you.
I bought mine with the standard sights and replaced them with a set of Ameriglo I-Dot Pros.
I bought mine with the standard sights and replaced them with a set of Ameriglo I-Dot Pros.
ForumSurfer
Member
Same here. I focus in on the front sight much quicker with a 2 dot or 1 dot configuration.
And before anyone mentions it, yes we should practice not sighted point shooting. But that comes much easier and more naturally after 100's and 100's of rounds using sighted fire. Point shooting is a great tool to keep in the toolbox, but no great as to ignore sighted fire.
And if money is tight...that $75 - $125 will be better spent on practice ammo.
The Lone Haranguer
Member
Night sights are beneficial for any carry gun, IMO. You can get by with just a front one. Total darkness is not necessary to see them, at least until they get older and start to dim due to the radioactive decay. Now, as to the brand, I would assume the factory night sights are also Novaks. Unless they have changed the design recently, these do not have white outlines around the green dots to make them useful in daytime. In that case I would select Meprolights.
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Stasher1
Member
I believe the factory night sights are Trijicons, so you shouldn't need to replace them for quite a while...unless you prefer a different sight picture (bar-dot, two dot, fiber optic, etc.)
S&W M&P Nights Sights?
A former "firearms instructor" at my work, who does competition shooting, including some night shooting, said that he doesn't like night sights at all. He figures that if it's too dark to see your sights, you shouldn't be shooting since you won't see what you're shooting at. He told me that he's spent hundreds of dollars on night sights, only to find that he doesn't use them, or finds that they make no difference. He recommended that I get the basic sights and spend my money on upgrading the trigger. Does this advice make sense?
A former "firearms instructor" at my work, who does competition shooting, including some night shooting, said that he doesn't like night sights at all. He figures that if it's too dark to see your sights, you shouldn't be shooting since you won't see what you're shooting at. He told me that he's spent hundreds of dollars on night sights, only to find that he doesn't use them, or finds that they make no difference. He recommended that I get the basic sights and spend my money on upgrading the trigger. Does this advice make sense?
Stasher1
Member
IMO, night sights aren't a replacement for flashlight in complete darkness, but they excel in low-light conditions, especially against a dark background.
As far as trigger upgrades, the needs of a "competition shooter" are different than those of a defensive shooter. I've owned dozens of guns over the past couple decades and have yet to find a gun that "needed" a trigger job. Some have had better triggers than others, but they've all been functional. Ymmv.
As far as trigger upgrades, the needs of a "competition shooter" are different than those of a defensive shooter. I've owned dozens of guns over the past couple decades and have yet to find a gun that "needed" a trigger job. Some have had better triggers than others, but they've all been functional. Ymmv.
That has been my experience also. As I've gotten older, I do appreciate a gold bead on the front sight.
If you have to have a night sight, I'd recommend just getting a lamp on the front blade. The first thing I did to my M&P is black out the dots on my rear sight.
I also highly recommend the Apex Tactical Specialties D/CAEK to make the trigger stroke more consistent and the reset more discreet
cyclopsshooter
Member
I like night sights, but the only practical use I've had for them is knowing exactly where my firearm is on my headboard at night. They also allow you to see the orientation of the firearm so that it can be efficiently and quietly picked up. Fiber-optic are much nicer for general daytime shooting. Vtac just came out with an interesting hybrid sight for the M&P..
ForumSurfer
Member
I've heard that, too. Yet I can walk around my well lit yard and find myself in a tree's shadow or a vehicles shadow and I can't see my sights. At the same time, even though my sights are a black blur, I can clearly see anything in the yard. For that reason, I feel the ever so slight possibility exists where I will be able to clearly identify a target but not my sights. That's why I have one lamp on the front. I may never need it, but if I do...it's there. Besides, I like a certain type of sight and it is only $20 more for a single lamp on the front blade.
Edited to add: If you're talking about that VTAC sight set with 6 dots...man is it ever busy to the eyes. I'm not a fan lol.
click clack
Member
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I love night sights but i recently shot some fiber optics on a buddie's glock...They're awesome during the day but I didnt get a chance see what they look like at night though. I have flashlight in the nightstand next to my M&P anyway so i think the fiber optics would suffice at night though.
XS big dot are also great.. Good luck!!
XS big dot are also great.. Good luck!!
cyclopsshooter
Member
Forum Surfer has a good point- aiming from the shadows into a lighted area. Night sights work very well for that.
ForumSurfer
Member
The fiber optics are dark at night. When lit from underneath with a light, they are still dark.
I owned a set of XS big dots. They are accurate at any distance with practice. However, it takes quite a bit of practice (and money spent on ammo) to develop enough skill to get to where you already were. The drawback with distance would be when the dot is larger than the target...like say a 4" plate at 20-25 yards that you need to ring to end a stage. You're covering the plate with the sight completely and you aren't sure how far you're shifted left, right, up or down. I had no trouble doing such...but my groups at distance were constantly tighter with traditional sights and far better with warren-sevigny sights. That, and big dots aren't faster than traditional sights at any distance. They are legal for IDPA, yet no major competitor uses them. IDPA is a balance of speed and accuracy. If they were the least bit faster, many top competitors would adopt them in a heartbeat. Most use an all black, wide rear notch and a thin front post for a reason.
YMMV, this is just my opinion and experience. We're all different.
allaroundhunter
Member
Has your instructor heard about a flashlight?
Most home invasions that put lives in danger occur at night. If you have no light, make some. You might be concerned about not hitting an innocent person, but the bad guy in your house won't be. Use a flashlight to identify a threat, and use your sights (that hopefully you can see) to take well aimed shots.
I got a quick look at them, and I have to agree with Forumsurfer. Until you are comfortable with them, there is a lot going on in front of you. For my intended uses, I will stick with (at most) 3-dot sights.
If the M&P comes with 'standard' Trijicons, note the front sight is bigger/brighter than the rear sites (lots of folks seem unaware of this). As such, my eye is naturally drawn to and focuses on the front sight, which is why Trijicon does it this way.
I resisted night sights for years because I was not willing to give up the clarity of 3 white dots in light for the night sights. Somewhere along the line, night sights changed - maybe it's because they now have white circles around the dots or ?, but to me night sights now look much better in light than the old ones.
BTW-I thought about going the green front/amber rear combo, but with the bigger/brighter front sight as found on the Trijicons, I find it impossible to mistake the front sight dot for a rear. I've also held the gun at enough of an angle in order to have one of the rear sights in the middle, and I see no way I'd every make that mistake as it feels so darn wrong/unnatural (focus aside) that I can't ever see having the gun cranked that far left/right in order to mistakenly place one of the rear sights in the center!
FWIW, my old retired bed gun was a S&W Sigma with factory Trijicons. The sights are now over 12 years old, and while not nearly as bright as when new, they still have plenty of usable years of life left for me.
Night sights are just another tool in the box for me - if I don't need 'em, they ain't hurtin' a thing by being there. If I do need 'em or could use 'em...well, there they are!
Hard to go wrong with the Trijicons from S&W as you avoid the expense, hassle, and sighting in required when replacing stock contrasting sights.
For years my old Sigma was my only gun with night sights, but over the last few years I've upgraded my P229R and two XDs with them (all Trijicon green).
I resisted night sights for years because I was not willing to give up the clarity of 3 white dots in light for the night sights. Somewhere along the line, night sights changed - maybe it's because they now have white circles around the dots or ?, but to me night sights now look much better in light than the old ones.
BTW-I thought about going the green front/amber rear combo, but with the bigger/brighter front sight as found on the Trijicons, I find it impossible to mistake the front sight dot for a rear. I've also held the gun at enough of an angle in order to have one of the rear sights in the middle, and I see no way I'd every make that mistake as it feels so darn wrong/unnatural (focus aside) that I can't ever see having the gun cranked that far left/right in order to mistakenly place one of the rear sights in the center!
FWIW, my old retired bed gun was a S&W Sigma with factory Trijicons. The sights are now over 12 years old, and while not nearly as bright as when new, they still have plenty of usable years of life left for me.
Night sights are just another tool in the box for me - if I don't need 'em, they ain't hurtin' a thing by being there. If I do need 'em or could use 'em...well, there they are!
Hard to go wrong with the Trijicons from S&W as you avoid the expense, hassle, and sighting in required when replacing stock contrasting sights.
For years my old Sigma was my only gun with night sights, but over the last few years I've upgraded my P229R and two XDs with them (all Trijicon green).
The Lone Haranguer
Member
He is entitled to my opinion.feldgrun said:
I reiterate that it doesn't have to be pitch black inside or outside for them to be useful. When you drive your car at dawn or dusk, the light is low, but enough for you to see the road ahead. But you might miss that car with its lights off coming at you. Put another way, I can go into one of the dimly lit rooms in my apartment and clearly identify friend or foe, but it is much harder to see little white dots.
Well I missed the trigger quote, but for an answer, absolutely not!
I am assuming this is going to be a SD gun (based on night sight discussions)?
If so, I'm also of the opinion that:
1. Give anything you own a 1,000 round trigger job before even thinking 'bout spending money on the trigger.
2. For a SD gun, I've yet to see a factory trigger that wasn't fine for it's purpose.
'Course, I grew up on DA revolvers, so longer, heavier trigger pulls don't bother me. One reason I replaced my Sigma bed gun with a SIG SP2022 was the ease with which you can dry fire the SIG-it has a 12 lb. pull in DA, which I have no problem with (I also used the money required to replace the Sigma's night sights toward the SIG's purchase).
Gotta watch out for those firearms instructors-there are bad ones out there.
A few years back, we had a retired PD firearms instructor manage to give himself a case of Glock leg and injure 3 or 4 more restaurant patrons in the process-this after being warned by the local gun shop employees that he shouldn't be Mexican carrying a Glock!
Winkman822
Member
I'd vote three dot contrast night sights...not really an option on the poll though. I have this set up on my daily carried Wilson CQB (yellow tritium night dots for the rear and a green tritium night dot for the front sight). It's a great setup since the yellow night dots are not as bright as the green so your focus is drawn more to the front sight (where it should be), and the contrasting colors makes it much easier to frame the sights up properly in low light.
Zerodefect
member
The problem I have with night sights is that they greatly compromise the pistols day time sight picture. Without giving any real advantage at night.
I can't use night sights in the dark in any real situation. They're just slow blurrs. Point shooting is the only reliable technique in the dark. If your sights show up that's a luxery. I use a rifle with a red dot at home.
If you haven't taken a class that includes a low light shoot house at night, make that a priority. Real low light shooting is extremely complex. Any real experience goes a long way.
I prefer 1 or 2 dot night sights. Like the Heinie ledge. Use a big .156 wide rear notch to speed things up because of the big clunky .125" wide front night sight. A plain rear sight is an option. You only need to see your front sight. It's weird, but effective once you've become used to it. And my 1911 with night sights is used only when going out at night. I hate carying my night sighted CCW during the day because I know how badly it slows me down and limits my range and accuracy.
3 dot night sights are garbage, nothing but confusion. I really discount any pistol manuafacturer that still uses dismal obsolete tech like this. No reason for any pistol sold in 2012 to have a 3 dot setup. A sure sign that someone at the factory is paying attnetion tocurrent tech, or deosn't care. I can't e figure out which dot is which under stress, even if the rear is dimmer than the front. Aiming a Kimber TLE in the dark is like trying to catch a UFO with your hands. There is a reason why the rear tritium on a Hienie 2 dot setup is tiny compared to the front. It's so that the sights act like a 1 dot setup, unless your completely lost, or have the time and opportunity to line both of them up.
For sunrise/sunset. I think the gold bead front and plain .156" rear sight work best. But I don't have room for every sight setup in my quiver. I'm not a rich man. So I currently don't use this setup.
My overall favorite sight setup is a plain rear and a Dawson fibreoptic front. Sure it's useless in pure dark, but it works good everywhere else. Often for me, plain black sights work best at sunrise/sunset. And this setup works like plain black sights in darker conditions.
The best thing about simple sights, you can use a thin front blade for accuracy and speed.
In a perfect world we all have a seperate CCW pistol for daytime and nighttime.
I can't use night sights in the dark in any real situation. They're just slow blurrs. Point shooting is the only reliable technique in the dark. If your sights show up that's a luxery. I use a rifle with a red dot at home.
If you haven't taken a class that includes a low light shoot house at night, make that a priority. Real low light shooting is extremely complex. Any real experience goes a long way.
I prefer 1 or 2 dot night sights. Like the Heinie ledge. Use a big .156 wide rear notch to speed things up because of the big clunky .125" wide front night sight. A plain rear sight is an option. You only need to see your front sight. It's weird, but effective once you've become used to it. And my 1911 with night sights is used only when going out at night. I hate carying my night sighted CCW during the day because I know how badly it slows me down and limits my range and accuracy.
3 dot night sights are garbage, nothing but confusion. I really discount any pistol manuafacturer that still uses dismal obsolete tech like this. No reason for any pistol sold in 2012 to have a 3 dot setup. A sure sign that someone at the factory is paying attnetion tocurrent tech, or deosn't care. I can't e figure out which dot is which under stress, even if the rear is dimmer than the front. Aiming a Kimber TLE in the dark is like trying to catch a UFO with your hands. There is a reason why the rear tritium on a Hienie 2 dot setup is tiny compared to the front. It's so that the sights act like a 1 dot setup, unless your completely lost, or have the time and opportunity to line both of them up.
For sunrise/sunset. I think the gold bead front and plain .156" rear sight work best. But I don't have room for every sight setup in my quiver. I'm not a rich man. So I currently don't use this setup.
My overall favorite sight setup is a plain rear and a Dawson fibreoptic front. Sure it's useless in pure dark, but it works good everywhere else. Often for me, plain black sights work best at sunrise/sunset. And this setup works like plain black sights in darker conditions.
The best thing about simple sights, you can use a thin front blade for accuracy and speed.
In a perfect world we all have a seperate CCW pistol for daytime and nighttime.
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postalnut25
Member
I'd go with the night sights.
My work BUG is a M&P9c with night sights. They are easy to see. My duty gun is an M&P9pro with the fiber optic front and black rear. That is a bad set-up because the fiber optic is fragile. I'm on my third front sight already. Thank god S&W gives LEOs free parts to fix their duty guns.
My work BUG is a M&P9c with night sights. They are easy to see. My duty gun is an M&P9pro with the fiber optic front and black rear. That is a bad set-up because the fiber optic is fragile. I'm on my third front sight already. Thank god S&W gives LEOs free parts to fix their duty guns.
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