M1 Carbine - Help me settle the penetration argument

[Glamdring]

So maybe compare 30 Carbine vs 357 Mag (carbine) and 30-30 all with 110 JHP and see how they do? A 110jhp in 30-30 can get up close to 223/55grain speeds IIRC.

 

[JShirley]

All I know, is that, with SP's, I am not worried about penetration. Expansion, on the other hand, I'm not to sure about.

 

[Al Thompson]

.357 v. .30 in 110 grain bullets

The .30 cal 110 has a SD of .166, the .357 is .123. Given like construction, the .30 will penetrate more.

FWIW, we got into this around lunch one day at work. One of the guys killed a doe the next weekend with an M1 using GA 110 SP. Penetration and exit wound looked fine - doe was 110 lbs. or so and the exit wound (through the ribs broadside) was about the size of a quarter.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Make sure you wrap your cow/pig carcass in a wool coat and drape it with a tightly rolled blanket.

Take pictures of any bullets that failed to penetrate the blanket.

 

[Newton]

Excellent responses.

So given like bullet construction, a .30 Cal 110 grain will penetrate further than .357 110 grain - I think that covers the penetration issue.

But bouncing off padded jackets at long range, all I can say is HOW long ?

Since everything is 110 gain - how do you think the M1 would have made out with a 130 or 140 grain round - better or worse ?

 

[444]

Thank you AL for some factual information. Now let's take it to the next level. How much more penetration are we talking about with that difference in sectional density ?

 

[Snowdog]

Since everything is 110 gain - how do you think the M1 would have made out with a 130 or 140 grain round - better or worse ?

Assuming the pressures are not increased, increasing the bullet weight of the .30carbine drastically such as that would only serve to dull some of its edge in velocity (thus trajectory and energy) over handgun. It may offer even greater penetration, but is it worth the cost?

Perhaps a redesigned bullet (even if slightly increased to the 115gr range) might yield better results. For example, a semi-spitzer style with boat tail might help with both the penetration issues and downrange ballistics, as it would retain more of its velocity downrange, thought the improvement may only be slight as the sectional density remains roughly the same. The only real concern would be feed reliability. If feed reliability is not a problem, this might be a plausible option.

However, in FMJ, a design like that would likely deliver less energy to the target as opposed to the traditional flat base round nose... unless designed to immediately tumble in a soft medium (hollow cavity under nose, et al).
However, after going through that kind of overhaul, it might just be simpler to adopt a 7.62x39 and something on that platform.
That would be my take.

A .30carbine should just be accepted for what it is, a handy little carbine chambered for a handy little cartridge.

Having said that, would truly love to see someone offer a 110-115gr pointed ballistic tip for the .30carbine for small game/home defense. It would be the bane of all coyote.

 

[JShirley]

Especially after seeing the extremely deep penetration of the SP, I've been hankering for an EFMJ M1 carbine round.

 

[jsalcedo]

I pick up my M1 out of layaway on tuesday.

I've got some 1962 headstamp GI ball also have some 110 grain FMJ .357 mag and a winchester 94 carbine.

Usually we use a box full of identical spiral notebooks and note the average number each comparative round penetrates.

My last test had identically loaded 240 grain.44 mag penetrate 16 notebooks out of my 629 and 21 notebooks out of a winchester trapper with a 16 inch barrel.


I'll post the results this week.

 

[444]

Good
It will be interesting to see what you come up with.
What bullet are you using in the .357 ?

 

[Gordon]

Hey Corbon, What we need is a 120-125 powerball shaped bullet to get 1800-2000fps from a carbine . Nobody makes one-yet I think I could load a 7.62X39 hollow point bullet to that in a .30 carbine with Lil Gun powder.

 

[jsalcedo]

The .357 loads are 110 grain round nose FMJ's loaded with 10 grains of unique. Which should give at least 1950fps out of the carbine. According to the load books.

I've shot them before out of my Taurus 66 and they pack a whallup.

 

[buttrap]

I can say from observation that the hornaday 110 grain half jacket slug does make a real mess out of deer necks. 1 kill hit the bone and others just hit the meat, all 3 totaly shreded the arterys and windpipe. 2 also had the windpipe and lungs full of a big blob of quagalated blood. I would not trust that bullet on a deer for a chest shot as it is so frangable but it does seem to kill porkypines and raccoons well with a shot to the middle.

 

[444]

That is an impressive bullet. I load those for my .30 Carbine Ruger Blackhawk. I believe it allows the bullet to open up at the low speed involved.

 

[Newton]

jsalcedo

All I can say is "eager anticipation".