M1841 Mississippi Rifle Questions

[Panzerschwein]

Hello gang!

In my seemingly infinite quest to purchase my first Civil War era reproduction rifled musket for the purposes of target shooting, I am wondering about the M1841 Mississippi rifle from Davide Pedersoli of Italy:

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/tipologia-prodotti.asp/l_en/idt_78/rifles-mississippi.html



It's a handsome gun. This one would be like the ones re-bored to .58 caliber to take Minie balls. I really like the fact that it looks soooooo good, love that patchbox. LOVE it. I also like the nice case-hardening and browned barrel. It's just a prettier lookin' gun than the '61 Springer I've been looking at. It's also notably shorter than the '61, would make toting it around more convenient.

But, I've got some questions.

1. I see that the rear sight on this gun is a simple dovetailed blade. This gun doesn't have the flip up long range sights on the '61. What does this mean for longer range shooting? I suppose the term "Kentucky Windage" will come into play? Can one shoot a Mississippi rifle out to 300 yards, or better?

2. Is the finish of this gun historically accurate? Did original M1841 "Mississippi" rifles have the casehardened lock, brass bands, browned barrel etc.?

3. What are the pros/cons of this Mississippi repro vs a '61 Springer repro?

Thanks!!

 

[Jim Watson]

A fixed open sight is definitely a limitation, especially with a high trajectory like a .58.

Flayderman says the brass mountings were bright, the barrel browned, the lockplate case hardened, and the screw heads blued.

The 33" rifle is definitely handier than the 40" rifle musket which was meant to provide as long a handle for a bayonet as feasible. Too bad nobody makes a repro 1855 rifle.
They DO make an 1863 Remington Zouave with 3 leaf sight.
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/sch...us-model-1863-zouave-us-model-1863-rifle.html

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

I have one in the proper, not re-bored, 54 caliber. They were issued during the Mexican War and, as legend has it, got the name "Mississippi" due to the use of the rifles in the hands of troops from Mississippi under the leadership of Jefferson Davis.
The rear sight is just a simple notch dovetailed in the barrel and the front sight is a brass blade staked into the barrel. Simple but accurate enough for the military I guess. I took a deer with mine a few years back using a round ball.
Mine is an older version and not a Pedersoli. It is a good looking rifle and fun to shoot.

 

[Panzerschwein]

A fixed open sight is definitely a limitation, especially with a high trajectory like a .58.

Flayderman says the brass mountings were bright, the barrel browned, the lockplate case hardened, and the screw heads blued.

The 33" rifle is definitely handier than the 40" rifle musket which was meant to provide as long a handle for a bayonet as feasible. Too bad nobody makes a repro 1855 rifle.
They DO make an 1863 Remington Zouave with 3 leaf sight.
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/sch...us-model-1863-zouave-us-model-1863-rifle.html

Thanks so much, Jim.

Looks that this Pedersoli at least is made with the historically correct finish. I also really like the '63 Zouaves, but since they were never used during the War they don't appeal to me near as much as the beautiful Mississippi.

But that rear sight... Around here, I've got a 100 yard and a 300 yard outdoor rifle range. I'd probably do most of my shooting at the 100 yard range, but boy would it be fun to try the gun at 300... is that possible with just a simple blade rear sight?

 

[forward observer]

Why don't you think about a two or three band Enfield instead. This gets you more sophisticated sights and a more stylish musket than the Springfield
IMHO. Dixie carries several models--Pedersoli being the most expensive but both are on sale right now. $875 and $950 respectively.

Howerver they also carry a two band by Chiappa at $750 that they claim has already been defarbed (meaning that the markings have been modified to be closer to original)

This is less than the normal Chiappa at $825 for both the 2 and 3 band models

Either way you get flip up elevator sights. The two band has the same barrel length as the Mississippi at 33 inches. Besides, it was a favorite of the Confederates--especially the cavalry. Of course it doesn't have a brass patch box, but these were hardly needed for most of the ACW since paper cartridges with minie balls became the norm.



Cheers

 

[D. Buck Stopshere]

If we are looking at a representative rifle of the period, then the fixed rear sight is "all she wrote". Remember that the strategy in the 19th century for our troops and the enemy was the European battle plan .

The opposing target was the "company front", nearly a hundred yards wide. Soldiers stood shoulder to shoulder on both sides and fired three to five volleys. This tactic continued until the end of the War Between The States.

Since Capt Claude Minie' of the French Army didn't introduce his minie ball until about 1855, the 1841 Harpers Ferry would be loading a .54 caliber round ball in a paper cartridge. Then, the rifles were rebored to .58 caliber between 1855 and 1860.

With a fixed rear sight, and a target about one hundred yards wide, you can't miss!

If you are going to keep the firearm, "as-issued", then you have to work with what you have. Good luck

 

[kBob]

Well you are going to have to hold over or show a little more front sight above the rear to make those 300 yard shots if the rear is right at 100.

Keep in mind that the originals in .54 were patched round ball rifles.

At least one source I read indicated they used a pre patched ball, that was sewn into its patch and pre lubricated and carried in their own belt pouch sepperate from the powder charges. Some claim the soldiers carried at least two different powder cartridges with different amounts and or types of powder to allow those fixed sights to be used at two different ranges.

There were attempts to make a Minnie ball in .54 caliber but the troops complained they were more inaccurate than the round ball and less accurate even than the converted .69 muskets that had been rifled and given their own HUGE Minnie ball. This was because of the rifling in the 1841 not being correct for Minnie ball usage and bullets stripped and tumbled.

By reboring the rifles and giving them the correct rifling for the Minnie ball they had a rifle more accurate than the smooth bore muskets and that could be fired more quickly than the patched ball unmodified 1841s with about the same accuracy as the patched ball. Actually if the rebored 1841s were zeroed for 150 yards they would be ankle to forehead accurate with a center hold from the muzzle to a bit over 200 yards......and that was just fine for the level of training of the vast majority of the troops. No additional cost for a new sight, simpler than a new sight and sturdier than a leaf or ladder sight and "If it ain't broke, it ain't been issued to the Infantry yet...."

Notice that as originally issued the 1841 Rifle had no means of mounting a bayonet and this continued to be an issue through the Civil War as different states and arsenals and even down to unit level tried different means of attaching different bayonets. Originally 1841 Rifle armed troops were issued a "Rifleman's Knife" that is a big honking knife or a 'hawk. The Mexicans proved this was a bad idea, but it was still an issue two decades later.

-kBob

 

[Malamute]

They are in fact nice looking rifles.

Its been mentioned about "correct for period" rear sight. The 1841 was from 20 years earlier. For Civil War period, most rifles had better rear sights. The 1841 was basically an obsolete gun that was pressed into service in the Civil War, most guns of the period were more advanced. Being able to buy a repro that's already set up for 58 minies is a step up, but the difference in rear sights has always kept me from really wanting an 1841. I did have a Zouve. It was a very accurate gun, and handled well. That it wasn't actually used in service never bothered me. I think its one of the best of the military muzzle loaders of the period.

 

[kBob]

D. Buck,

The hollow based expanding bullet of Minie's was developed and first shown in 1847.

Both French and British troops would bear rifles with his name and the designation 1851.

They both featured ladder type sights with very long range numbers on them to 1000 meters.

They were .71 to .72 caliber in the P51's of France and Britain.

The British soon went with a small bore of .577 caliber for their three band Enfield P53 and an improved bullet and cartridge design.

Actually British shotgun maker Wm Greener claimed to have show a design of his that was ecentually the Minie bullet two years earlier than Minie presenting his and eventually won a settlement in the English courts. Some of his P56 two band rifles he built for British Voulunteer Corps featured his claim to the "expansive Bullet" engraved on the top of the barrel.

-kBob

 

[kBob]

F.O.,

The P53 through P60 and patterns in between in British service and CSA as well had sights that were "stepped" "tangent" rear sight with steps for 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards. (1, 2, 3, 4)This meant there was little danger of breaking off a ladder type sight as had been used on the earlier "Minie Rifle" called the P51 (see my last post).

But you are right in that for targets beyond 400 yards and beginning at a marked 500 to a marked 1000 yards (again first digit only) the sight becomes a ladder type sight. There was a fixed notch at the top of the ladder sight which some have described as 1100 yards and others 1200 but I would call either wishful thinking. These sights allowed a precision not possible with the typical US folding leaf sights.

It has always fascinated me that these rifles continued to soldier on as Snider Rifles using cartridges right up until the adoption of the Martini Henry (Peabody rip off). While only the first runs used the barrels with only a cut out for the welded on breech and later ones did use a "shoe", that is purpose built breech into which a shortened barrel was screwed into (or was it one to?),
the rifles truly used almost all the old muzzle loader parts right up to the last.

And the ammunition? though a fixed cartridge the bullet continued to be a hollow base design with either a Boxwood or clay plug in it, a Minie bullet in a cartridge case!

-kBob.....oh yeah..."splash, over"

 

[4v50 Gary]

The original 1841 Rifles had a simple rear sight. When some were rebored for minie balls, they had new sight installed to take advantage of the greater range.

 

[Panzerschwein]

The original 1841 Rifles had a simple rear sight. When some were rebored for minie balls, they had new sight installed to take advantage of the greater range.

Really? Any chance I could get a gunsmith to install said sights on an M1841 Mississippi repro?

I like the 2-band Enfield, it's very nice, but man that Mississippi... I like it better!! Just don't want to be handicapped in long range shooting with it...

 

[StrawHat]

...Really? Any chance I could get a gunsmith to install said sights on an M1841 Mississippi repro?...

Cooldill, you can do about anything you want with it as it is your rifle. All you need to do is find someone handy with tools and willing to do the work.

In my case, I am the handy one and once upon a time I had some free time so I took an 1841 with a burst barrel and made this. I like the look of the bright barrel.

Also a photo of the rifle with a Richards Conversion Model.

Kevin

 

[4v50 Gary]

Cooldill - a gunsmith can put on better sights, but your barrel should be a different twist (and take a minie ball) to take advantage of it. Frankly I'd go with a Parker Hale Enfield myself.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Cooldill - a gunsmith can put on better sights, but your barrel should be a different twist (and take a minie ball) to take advantage of it. Frankly I'd go with a Parker Hale Enfield myself.

This barrel has a 1:72 3-groove rifling... .58 caliber... Same as all of Pedersoli's rifle muskets.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Thanks gang!

Does anyone know what type of rear sight I would need to have installed, that is historically correct, and also allows for long range shooting out to 300 yards plus?

Also, can anyone recommend a gunsmith to do this work?

 

[Slamfire]

James River Armory made a repro Mississippi. It was in 58 caliber, reflecting a converted Mississippi, which was done by the Union. I don't know if the South made conversions, I read a book about the 4th Alabama, before Bull Run they were all issued round ball Mississippi's and fought in the battle of Bull Run with the things. First battle, their Col Colonel Egbert J.Jones was killed, was later buried in Alabama.

http://www.rocketcitymom.com/event/maple-hill-cemetery-stroll/

Here is Col Jones in one of his post mortem appearances:



Find a Grave reference: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=8842267

Anyway, I bought a James River Armory 58 Cal Mississippi rifle and much prefer the thing to my M1861 Colt repro. What was important to me was that James River put a very tall front sight that was mounted in a dovetail. I was able to drift and file the front sight so the rifle is zero'd at 100 yards. I do like the short handiness of the thing. The velocity between my Colt 1861 and the Mississippi is very close, with the same bullet and charge. Unfortunately, the Colt repro, the rear sight base and front sight are almost 15 degrees off set. It is obvious the factory only put the sights on for the historic look, and cared nothing for sight alignment. I have found this to be true for most of the blackpowder replicas I own. The average buyer is not interested in historical appearance and is such a poor shooter that they don't understand why they are not hitting at what they aim. When they do hit the target, it is due to their flinch!


As for shooting at range, like 200 or 300 yards, I have never tried. I did walk back to 150 yards, with my 100 yard zero, and the minie dropped something like 18 inches. These things have a rain bow trajectory. With issue sights, it would be a lot of work to get the things on at distance. It is too bad that no one makes an windage adjustable rear for these rifles, but the market is more interested in the historic appearance than over shooting the things accurately.

Which, I think is actually historical. I have read a number of accounts of good shooters being frustrated with their ill bored muskets. One, wrote an account where he was given the chance to shoot General Nathan Bedford Forrest. Forrest was visible, conferring with an Artillery Officer, and this Union private carefully aimed and shot at the General. The Private wrote he was an experienced squirrel hunter, knew how to aim and hold, but with his ill bored and sighted musket, the only thing that happened after a couple of shots, was that General Forrest knew he was being shot at, and rode off quickly once his business was done.

The NRA was set up after the Civil War precisely due to the lack of marksmanship in the troops, and the rifles. The military wanted to encourage marksmanship because the experience in the Civil War was that, hits were more due to accident than cause.

[SIZE="3"]
[b]58 Caliber Eli Whitney Musket, 33" barrel [/b]			
							
	
						
							
510 gr Minie Rapine mold 577510  50.0 grs GOEX  FFg, wtd, CCI cap		
					
24-Mar-05	T = 65 °F
						
Ave Vel =	807	 			 	 	
Std Dev =	48				 	 	
ES =	166.9	 			 	 	
Low =	701.1				 	 	
High =	868				 	 	
N =	10						
							
							
510 gr Minie Rapine mold 577510 50.0 grs GOEX  FFg, wtd, CCI cap			

15-Apr-05 T = 68 °F							
							
							
Ave Vel =	837	 			 	 	
Std Dev =	11				 	 	
ES =	34.6	 			 	 	
Low =	821.4				 	 	
High =	856				 	 	
N =	10						
							
2" three shot group 100 yards							
							
							
							
							
510 gr Minie Rapine Mold 575510 50.0 grs GOEX  FFg, wtd, CCI cap			
							
15-Apr-05 T = 68 °F							
							
							
Ave Vel =	806	 			 	 	
Std Dev =	11				 	 	
ES =	30	 			 	 	 
Low =	786.3				 	 	 
High =	816.3				 	 	 
N =	10						
							
							
510gr .575"  Black Jack Minie 35.0 grs Pyrodex (50.0 grs  FFg volume) CCI cap
							
10-Jun-05 T = 82 °F							
							
Ave Vel =	649	 					
Std Dev =	36						
ES =	133.1	 					
Low =	563						
High =	696.1						 
N =	16						
							
Group size: v. good							
							
							
510gr .575"  Black Jack Minie 35.0 grs Pyrodex (50.0 grs  FFg volume) CCI cap
10-Jun-05	T = 82 °F						
Ave Vel =	649	 					
Std Dev =	36						
ES =	133.1	 					
Low =	563						
High =	696.1						 
N =	16						
				
Group Size		v. good					
							
chronograph 24 feet away from muzzle							
							
510gr .575"  Black Jack Minie 70.0 grs Pyrodex (100 grs  FFg volume) CCI cap
10-Jun-05	T = 82 °F						
							
Ave Vel =	725	 		 	 	 	
Std Dev =	541			 	 	 	
ES =	940.5	 		 	 	 	
Low =	99.5			 	 	 	
High =	1040		 	 	 	 	 
N =	3						
				
				
8.5" high at 100 yards chrono graph 24 feet away from muzzle							
							
510 gr .575" 510575 Rapine 35.0 grs Pyrodex (50 grs  FFg volume) CCI cap		
10-Jun-05	T = 82 °F						
Ave Vel =	677	 				 	
Std Dev =	23					 	
ES =	83	 				 	
Low =	617.8					 	 
High =	700.8					 	 
N =	15						
good group chrono graph 24 feet away from muzzle		
							
							
							
[b]58 Caliber Colt Signature M1861 3 Band Musket[/b]
three groove barrel			
							
460 gr Rapine 577460 sized .575 50.0 grs Goex CCI cap		
29-Jan-06	T = 70 °F						
							
Ave Vel =	866				 		
Std Dev =	42				 		
ES =	102				 		
Low =	813				 		
High =	915				 		
N =	6						
6.5" left
2.5 " high
at 50 yards [/SIZE]

 

[MEHavey]

infinite quest to purchase my first Civil War era
reproduction rifled musket for the purposes of target shooting,

Get the `61 Springfield and quit fretting. It at least has good multi-range leaf sights.
And if you're going to be "target" shooting, you're going to be installing/fitting/custom
drilling a leaf aperture anyway -- like approximately 98.453% of the N-SSA shooters do.




* As to the 3-band Enfield... Beautiful rifle, but the stock fit was such that I always
had great difficulty getting down on the sights. It wasn't a natural pointer
at all, whereas the Springfield was/is.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Get the `61 Springfield and quit fretting. It at least has good multi-range leaf sights.
And if you're going to be "target" shooting, you're going to be installing/fitting/custom
drilling a leaf aperture anyway -- like approximately 98.453% of the N-SSA shooters do.




* As to the 3-band Enfield... Beautiful rifle, but the stock fit was such that I always
had great difficulty getting down on the sights. It wasn't a natural pointer
at all, whereas the Springfield was/is.

I guess you're right.

I am being too ambitious I suppose. So with the stock sights, can a Pedersoli '61 Springfield hit out to 300 yards? I mean, if not, I would still get the Mississippi since I'd have to change out the sights anyway... am I right?

About the Enfields, I'm not so keen on them. I am not hot on the looks, and I keep hearing how they don't fit Americans as well. I'd prefer the traditional style stock on either a Mississippi or Springfield '61.

 

[MEHavey]

The `61 sight has two leaves for service loads, 300 yards and 500 yards.
With both leaves down, the range is nominally 100 yards

 

[Panzerschwein]

The `61 sight has two leaves for service loads, 300 yards and 500 yards.
With both leaves down, the range is nominally 100 yards

Oooh... I like the sound of that. Seems about ideal for my porpoises.

 

[Iggy]

If you're bound and determined to shoot 300 yards, find yourself a Sharps percussion rifle.

Berdan's Sharpshooters use them with some success.

 

[MEHavey]

.Remember... These are military battle-sight settings.
See: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6103761

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

You should be able to order an 1861 Springfield rear leaf sight from Dixie Gun Works and then have a smith mount it.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Excellent.

So one of the other reasons why I'm staying away from the 2-band Enfield is that I've read they were almost unheard of in the U.S. Civil War. Almost all of them used were 3-bands.

No bueno.