M1903 Stupid Question.

[LynnMassGuy]

OK,I apologize if there is an obvious answer that I am not seeing. M1903 rifles were produced from 1903 to 1945 as far as I know. The 30-06 round came to be in 1906. What were M1903 rifles chambered in from 1903-1905?

John
LMG

 

[LynnMassGuy]

Woops. I think I found the answer. 30-03.

Shoulda' looked a little harder.
John
LMG

 

[Johnny Guest]

Not a stupid question at all, LMG

The original 1903 rifle was chambered for a somewhat less efficient round called, I think, the US Service M1903. I don't have my reference stuff at hand, but I believe it was a 220 gr RN bullet at around 2300 fps. And the 1903 rifles had a full 24 inch barrel, sporting a spike bayonet.

It soon became apparent that the spitzer style bullet was the wave of the future, and so the .30 US Govt. Model 1906 round came into being. It had a 150 gr bullet at ~2900 fps. This round was loaded in a case just a bit shorter than the 1903 cartridge, which came to be called the .30'03.

There had already been a lot of 1903 rifles produced, and when the changeover in ammo came about, practically all of them were returned for modification. This entailed taking, I believe, two threads off the breech end and rechambering. The result was a barrel about 23.6" in length, and all subsequent new production rifles copied this rather unusual length. Other mods to the rifle included new sights with graduations matched to the new '06 cartridge, and provisions for a detachable blade-type bayonet.

Good sources: Book of the Springfield by Crossman and Cartridges of the World by Frank Barnes. Actually, any serious student of the rifle probably ought to own both of these books.

Best,
Johnny

PS - - I see you already found some of the answer. Oh well . . . .

 

[SMLE]

The original run 1903s had a tangent sight similar to the Lee Enfield and the "rod bayonet" used on the later Trapdoor Springfields. Some were modified to use the M1905 bayonet and had their sights updated to the folding leaf, but a few retained the tangent sight. Watch Sgt. York with Gary Cooper, if you look close, you'll see the original sights on the rifles used in the movie.

I got to handle an original and UN-modified 1903 rifle a while back. It's kind of cool to leave finger prints on a $25,000 gun once in a while.

 

[mustanger98]

My recollection of my reading says Johnny Guest is right about the chambering.

My reading on the bayonet says it was a pretty crappy set-up. The rod bayonet was retractable into the front of the stock and it wasn't all that stout either. Then-President Theodore Roosevelt, when the ranking officer over US Army Ordnance said it was fine, challenged him to bayonet sparring. The General used a new '03 with rod bayonet while Pres. Roosevelt used a US Krag Rifle with blade bayonet. They sparred till the '03's bayonet broke and the General promptly changed his mind that the retractable rod bayonet was not so good after all.

The '03's retractable rod bayonet is not the same as that of some models of Lee Enfield's, the latter using a lug like most other military rifles.

Watch Sgt. York with Gary Cooper, if you look close, you'll see the original sights on the rifles used in the movie.

In the "stateside" training scenes, Gary Cooper has a '03. In the battle scene, if you look close you can tell it's a US Enfield M1917 as it has the aperture sights. The real Sgt Alvin York, in his diary, said he much prefered the '03's sights over the 1917's.

 

[MrMurphy]

I handled an M1903A1 modified for use in WW1 with the Pedersen device a few months back. Still in excellent condition.

 

[SMLE]

mustanger98;

The '03's retractable rod bayonet is not the same as that of some models of Lee Enfield's, the latter using a lug like most other military rifles.

I was referring to the sights, not the bayonets.
AFAIK, no Lee Enfield ever used a retractable or folding bayonet.

I don't recall ever seeing a 1917 in the movie version of Sgt. York. You are correct though that in real life York carried a 1917 and did prefer the open sights of the '03 as they were more like the sights of the rifles he had used growing up in Tennesee.

 

[nbkky71]

>> I handled an M1903A1 modified for use in WW1 with the Pedersen device
>> a few months back

I think you're referring to the M1903 Mark 1.


Also, here a pic of the 1930 and 1906 rounds