M193 versus M855 for home defense carbine ammo?
- Thread starter Balrog
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denton
Member
Either will work. Both will probably penetrate more than you wish they would. Neither is optimum for the job. Get a hunting round with an expanding bullet. You'll buy one box of 20, and never use it up.
855 was designed to penetrate a Russian soldier's helmet. That's not likely a threat you will face. You will not be able to shoot 855 at most indoor ranges.
855 was designed to penetrate a Russian soldier's helmet. That's not likely a threat you will face. You will not be able to shoot 855 at most indoor ranges.
Panzerschwein
member
Neither.
Hornady 55 grain TAP Urban rounds.
Or better yet, 7.62x39mm with Winchester PDX1 rounds.
Hornady 55 grain TAP Urban rounds.
Or better yet, 7.62x39mm with Winchester PDX1 rounds.
ACP
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as others have said, there are better choices -- softpoint or hollowpoint, not FMJ. My MagPuls are loaded with Federal TRU, but I would be disinclined to touch off a round indoors.
I use M193 outdoors, always get compliments on the muzzle flash. I can't imagine the sound, blast or flash inside a house.
I use M193 outdoors, always get compliments on the muzzle flash. I can't imagine the sound, blast or flash inside a house.
jaysouth
Member
If your nearest neighbor is less than a mile away, do them a favor and get a shotgun for home defense.
denton
Member
Yup. Before you touch one off, close one eye and plug one ear. You will then have the advantage over your adversary, who will be blind and deaf.
Panzerschwein
member
Yeah, get a double barrel shotgun and go out on your porch and fire two blasts in the air. That'll scare 'em off.
Please do some research on penetration of frangible intermediate rifle rounds vs shotguns loaded with buckshot. You might be surprised.
Soft points or Hollow Points are better, but either 193 or 855 will work if that's all you have or happen to live in the country.
855 looks impressive in gel, but 55gr will likely fragment better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRbAfdoU9vY
M
855 looks impressive in gel, but 55gr will likely fragment better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRbAfdoU9vY
M
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meanmrmustard
Member
Neither.
Especially if you live in the burbs.
Especially if you live in the burbs.
1911 guy
Member
5.56 is a perfectly viable option for HD, and is often a better option than the traditional favorites. Your individual circumstances may vary, but never dismiss 5.56 out of hand.
Between the two options in the OP, the smart money is always on M193. M855 was designed with very narrow penetration requirement and use as a light machine gun ammunition in mind, not general use. The overall effectiveness of M193 was compromised to meet the requirements set forth by the Army.
M193 has higher velocity, lower pressure, flatter trajectory, better fragmentation and is overall more effective on living targets than M855 ever was or will be. I've seen them both used and the difference might not be chocolate and vanilla, but it's definite and noticeable.
If you need to poke a hole in a Russian helmet at a few hundred yards or interchange ammunition with a light machine gun, pick M855. If neither of those two apply, forget it even exists.
Between the two options in the OP, the smart money is always on M193. M855 was designed with very narrow penetration requirement and use as a light machine gun ammunition in mind, not general use. The overall effectiveness of M193 was compromised to meet the requirements set forth by the Army.
M193 has higher velocity, lower pressure, flatter trajectory, better fragmentation and is overall more effective on living targets than M855 ever was or will be. I've seen them both used and the difference might not be chocolate and vanilla, but it's definite and noticeable.
If you need to poke a hole in a Russian helmet at a few hundred yards or interchange ammunition with a light machine gun, pick M855. If neither of those two apply, forget it even exists.
This myth needs to die.
Your shotgun with slugs or buckshot or any handgun round will penetrate farther through building materials than FMJ 223 ammo. An AR rifle is much safer for this than a shotgun or handgun.
That said for home defense the compactness of a handgun would still be my 1st choice most of the time. I do have AR's that could be used under certain circumstances and keep soft point ammo loaded in several magazines for this. FMJ still won't likely over penetrate, but soft point ammo will end the fight quicker. Brand or bullet weight just ain't that critical.
1911 guy
Member
^^THIS^^
It has been proven again and again that high velocity rifle rounds fragment much sooner than low velocity handgun rounds, yet folks continue to insist that a carbine is dangerous to your neighbors. Lack of a backstop of some sort is always a danger, but that handgun slug going 800 to 1100 FPS is going to travel a lot farther than a carbine or rifle slug going approximately 3000 FPS after hitting nearly anything, including BG, sheet rock, furniture, structural lumber, etc.
Not theorized about, but proven. But firearms seem to have mythical standing to some and they can't let facts get in the way of the mythology.
It has been proven again and again that high velocity rifle rounds fragment much sooner than low velocity handgun rounds, yet folks continue to insist that a carbine is dangerous to your neighbors. Lack of a backstop of some sort is always a danger, but that handgun slug going 800 to 1100 FPS is going to travel a lot farther than a carbine or rifle slug going approximately 3000 FPS after hitting nearly anything, including BG, sheet rock, furniture, structural lumber, etc.
Not theorized about, but proven. But firearms seem to have mythical standing to some and they can't let facts get in the way of the mythology.
USAF_Vet
Member
And probably bleeding.
Driftertank
Member
Expanding>M193>M855>frangible
No4Mk1*
Member
M193 is what I use. But really anything EXCEPT varmint bullets would be fine by me. M855 is reasonable if you predict your adversary will be using cover (trees, etc).
Hummer70
Member
Insofar as wound cavitation is concerned they are both limited to the first 95 yards per the Army Wound Ballistics Lab.
Do a search for NATO HANDBOOK ON EMERGENCY WAR SURGERY and go to chapter two entitled Missile Caused Wounds and read that. Shows wound profiles from testing by the Army Wound Ballistics Lab. Col Martin Fackler MD was the director and now lives in Florida.
Per Fackler's statement to me after 95 yards the wound cavitation drops off quickly.
Save up gallon milk jugs, fill with water. Shoot them at 75, 150 and 300 yards. Have someone down range with a android phone to record the bullet impacts for all ranges. That will tell you lots.
Do a search for NATO HANDBOOK ON EMERGENCY WAR SURGERY and go to chapter two entitled Missile Caused Wounds and read that. Shows wound profiles from testing by the Army Wound Ballistics Lab. Col Martin Fackler MD was the director and now lives in Florida.
Per Fackler's statement to me after 95 yards the wound cavitation drops off quickly.
Save up gallon milk jugs, fill with water. Shoot them at 75, 150 and 300 yards. Have someone down range with a android phone to record the bullet impacts for all ranges. That will tell you lots.
I'm not sure we would volunteer to be downrange with our cell phones . . .
First, Home Defense isn't about our last ditch effort to shoot it out inside the interior of our homes. It's about external physical security and what you do to keep them out in the first place.
Once inside, most ammo will penetrate the flimsy construction we call "stick built." Everyone worries about bullets penetrating walls, what will, what wont. The reality is people shooting at you thru your bedroom door, back windows, etc. Hollow core doors and triple pane E-glass doesn't even rate as well as two 1/2" sheet of rock. And if you are shooting back with the perps sheltering aside from the opening - better to have penetration and reach them.
Entirely the point of military ammo - to penetrate built up concealment and prove it wasn't cover. Again, a last ditch shootout inside the home? Think about hitting the target, even if they are behind a corner or furniture. Accepting ammo that won't penetrate or hit them means accepting a disadvantage - one they didn't. They could be be using ammo that does, and it's not what you want to put up with. You are trying to stop them as quickly as possible before they get a hit on you.
Moot point, you already failed to keep them out by focusing on the gun and ammo as your last line of effort, instead of exterior security. If anything the discussion on Home Defense is one based on complete failure to have a secure home in the first place. To do that, the first line of defense would be limited access to the neighborhood - a gated community with surrounding wall, which keeps out strays and limits thefts to your neighbors. Second, the same for that house, with exterior property alarms. Then a hardened exterior plus the discipline to make visitors cool their heels on the front porch - don't open the door until you know who they are. Most home intrusions are the homeowners fault - they open the door.
What ammo you choose to shoot at them is so far down the list of things to "fix" that it shouldn't even be getting discussion, but whatever, it's a gun forum and the shootout fantasy is something we replay over and over. Regardless - if you get into a shootout inside your home, you can only control at best 50% of the bullets flying around. Against multiple opponents, even less, and you can't pick their ammo. Your priority requirement is to get them to stop shooting at you and your family who is right behind you - as a backstop for their penetrating ammo?
Goes to a lack of appropriate education or training on the subject. I recommend a few months in Basic Training at the Infantry School, with at least two weeks in Urban Combat. Being able to shoot Opfor thru sheet rock is a blessing most third world countries don't offer.
First, Home Defense isn't about our last ditch effort to shoot it out inside the interior of our homes. It's about external physical security and what you do to keep them out in the first place.
Once inside, most ammo will penetrate the flimsy construction we call "stick built." Everyone worries about bullets penetrating walls, what will, what wont. The reality is people shooting at you thru your bedroom door, back windows, etc. Hollow core doors and triple pane E-glass doesn't even rate as well as two 1/2" sheet of rock. And if you are shooting back with the perps sheltering aside from the opening - better to have penetration and reach them.
Entirely the point of military ammo - to penetrate built up concealment and prove it wasn't cover. Again, a last ditch shootout inside the home? Think about hitting the target, even if they are behind a corner or furniture. Accepting ammo that won't penetrate or hit them means accepting a disadvantage - one they didn't. They could be be using ammo that does, and it's not what you want to put up with. You are trying to stop them as quickly as possible before they get a hit on you.
Moot point, you already failed to keep them out by focusing on the gun and ammo as your last line of effort, instead of exterior security. If anything the discussion on Home Defense is one based on complete failure to have a secure home in the first place. To do that, the first line of defense would be limited access to the neighborhood - a gated community with surrounding wall, which keeps out strays and limits thefts to your neighbors. Second, the same for that house, with exterior property alarms. Then a hardened exterior plus the discipline to make visitors cool their heels on the front porch - don't open the door until you know who they are. Most home intrusions are the homeowners fault - they open the door.
What ammo you choose to shoot at them is so far down the list of things to "fix" that it shouldn't even be getting discussion, but whatever, it's a gun forum and the shootout fantasy is something we replay over and over. Regardless - if you get into a shootout inside your home, you can only control at best 50% of the bullets flying around. Against multiple opponents, even less, and you can't pick their ammo. Your priority requirement is to get them to stop shooting at you and your family who is right behind you - as a backstop for their penetrating ammo?
Goes to a lack of appropriate education or training on the subject. I recommend a few months in Basic Training at the Infantry School, with at least two weeks in Urban Combat. Being able to shoot Opfor thru sheet rock is a blessing most third world countries don't offer.
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FL-NC
Member
193 all day long
You can't go wrong with the M193. The M855 is WAY over-rated, if for no other reason than the mil issues it. Its a hot round, and not very accurate. I've heard stories about the M855 having poor terminal performance (not killing bad guys with numerous hits) but I always witnessed the exact opposite. The 193 was preferred for terminal performance/"yaw factor", especially in urban fights. The problem was/is that 193 is somewhat scarce in the mil nowadays. That being said, we generally opted for 77 grain MK262 for superior accuracy and terminal performance, but absent MK262 I would def. go with the 55 grain if it was available.
You can't go wrong with the M193. The M855 is WAY over-rated, if for no other reason than the mil issues it. Its a hot round, and not very accurate. I've heard stories about the M855 having poor terminal performance (not killing bad guys with numerous hits) but I always witnessed the exact opposite. The 193 was preferred for terminal performance/"yaw factor", especially in urban fights. The problem was/is that 193 is somewhat scarce in the mil nowadays. That being said, we generally opted for 77 grain MK262 for superior accuracy and terminal performance, but absent MK262 I would def. go with the 55 grain if it was available.
tark
Member
jmr 40, it is not a myth. What if your shot at an adversary misses and goes through a thin wall or an open window with only a screen to penetrate? What if you fire at an intruder in an open doorway and miss? These are unlikely scenarios, but certainly possible. Even M-193 bullets, having passed through nothing more than a screen, or nothing at all, can travel a mile and kill.
There is nothing better than a shotgun for inside a home. And forget the buck shot and slugs. #6 of 7-1/2 shot is all you need. And there is almost NO chance that an innocent, outside your home will be injured. To get back on subject:
The OP was seeking the best 223 round for home defense. I would vote for any good 55 grain hollowpoint or softpoint.
There is nothing better than a shotgun for inside a home. And forget the buck shot and slugs. #6 of 7-1/2 shot is all you need. And there is almost NO chance that an innocent, outside your home will be injured. To get back on subject:
The OP was seeking the best 223 round for home defense. I would vote for any good 55 grain hollowpoint or softpoint.
W.E.G.
Member
This thread gets done a lot.
OP should specify what firing scenario he envisions for "home defense."
Without that information, the same old "buy a shotgun," "hollow-points are better," "don't shoot," "read Fackler," etc. are going to be regurgitated every time.
OP should specify what firing scenario he envisions for "home defense."
Without that information, the same old "buy a shotgun," "hollow-points are better," "don't shoot," "read Fackler," etc. are going to be regurgitated every time.
COLOSHOOTR
Member
There is a reason 99.8% of Law Enforcement Agencies use some form of expanding or hollow point rifle ammo. A good choice is something like Gold Dot GDSP .223. It's no different than a self defense / carry handgun get the right ammo for the job.
All that being said if you've never hunted for people in confined spaces like a house using a long gun you might want to take some training classes and give it a try. It's much harder to navigate and not telegraph your position as you move with a long gun inside and shooting weak side may be required to not expose yourself too much and it's a whole different ball game. Some situations require you to go to a handgun anyway as you may not have room to get the rifle up. Also, if you've never stood next to or slightly in front of a shotgun or AR going off you should try it (in a safe manner not directly in front of). The pressure coming off them, especially a rifle with a comp or flash hider, is severe and if you shoot one next to family without hearing protection inside they may never forgive you. Shotguns and rifles may be the best people stoppers but are not always the best tool for the job. I think people often forget that.
All that being said if you've never hunted for people in confined spaces like a house using a long gun you might want to take some training classes and give it a try. It's much harder to navigate and not telegraph your position as you move with a long gun inside and shooting weak side may be required to not expose yourself too much and it's a whole different ball game. Some situations require you to go to a handgun anyway as you may not have room to get the rifle up. Also, if you've never stood next to or slightly in front of a shotgun or AR going off you should try it (in a safe manner not directly in front of). The pressure coming off them, especially a rifle with a comp or flash hider, is severe and if you shoot one next to family without hearing protection inside they may never forgive you. Shotguns and rifles may be the best people stoppers but are not always the best tool for the job. I think people often forget that.
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