M1A Forum

[7.62mm]

The following is by no means comprehensive, but only a start. There are many fine suppliers and sources that I don't have time or space to list. Many that I don't even know about.

But here goes:

For a list of equipment and a comprehensive study of HP competition go to:

http://www.precisionshooting.com/books.html

and look into the following two books:

Modern Highpower Competition
By Randolph Constantine
Price: $39.95 (Softcover)

and

The Highpower Shooting Primer
By: Masters, High Masters, National Champions, & leading writers and accuracy gunsmiths
Price: $34.95 (Softcover - full page size 8 ½ x 11")
520 pages and 173 of the very best articles taken from the pages of Precision Shooting magazine.

Those two are an excellent start.

Equipment: (Costs are estimates, you may be able to do better)

Shooting Jacket - $100 - $300
Shooting Glove - $40
Shooting Mat - $45
Shooting Stool (For your gear) $60
Spotting scope (Essential for spoting shots and reading mirage at 300 and 600 yards) $100 - $800
Scope Stand - $50 -$200
M1A leather sling - $50+ for a comeptition grade, heavy leather sling.
Data Book - $8

Constantine's book has a whole chapter dedicated to clothing and equipment.

Go to this site for a good survey of getting started:

http://www.bcsportsmen.org/hipower.html

It contains a list of the major suppliers.

You can find equipment at many places but I have used Creedmoor Sports and find their equipment and service to be excellent:

http://www.creedmoorsports.com/

Another excellent site to visit is Fulton Armory. Probably one of the best M1A builders and a wealth of information:

http://www.fulton-armory.com/

Hope this helps.

Regards,

7.62mm

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

7.62 you beat me to it so this info may repeat what you have already listed.
ok here is what I would do if I was just starting out.

go to the cmp site and get a copy of the requirements to get a rifle threw the cmp. if you do that you will save big bucks on both rifles.
you will have a choice of a few different national match grade rifles.
the bushmaster rifle from the cmp is a very good rifle at $875.
I also believe you can go threw rock river arms with proof (call them for how to do it at rra's) at about $10 less or so.
like I said they are both very good rifles.
( the rra's has a very good trigger,sight set up and float tube) plus it is the rifle of choice to send to the top gun smiths to have worked over if you decide later to do that.
they are both capible of carring you to high master.
get 3 mags 20 round usgi if your rifle does not come with a mag or up to 3 if it does.( one for the slow fire and two for the rapids)
a mat for laying on the ground is a great way to go because you are going to be on it for 3/4 of the match, you have a few choices but they also last for decades. champions choice, creedmore. go to a match and see what the other's are using. about 60 to 80 dollars.
a shooting glove or mitt really helps, a good leather mitt will last you a few years from creedmore or ok weber for around $30

I think they might not come with a sling (not sure) but a turner 54" or 56" sling for the ar15 runs around $45 and will last you a few seasons. again the same places carry it.

get a can of sight black from them at the same time.$5

that gets you started pretty good for right at $1065.

now ammo, you want to shoot good ammo threw it and not blasting ammo.
if you already reload it does not cost much to get going on that.
if you do not already reload black hills remanfactured 75 match hornady's (blue box) are the way to go. now your club may buy them threw black hills at a great price or tommy haskins at georgia precision has killer deals on it also. ( have never met a match rifle yet that did not like those rounds). I believe a case of 500 to your door runs around $150. he has a deal right now for I believe $279 for 1,000.
it gives you brass for reloading also and uses usgi brass.

-------------------------------------------
now that above will get you going.
with the ar15 you can get away with not using a spotting scope or jacket but will want both soon if you like it.

the creedmore shooting jacket is the one of choice hardback canvas.
the spotting scope is also a choice of what to get and you will also need a stand.
all of these 3 items can be bought used at great discounts and you can ask steve where to look when you decide on those items.

I hope that helps. jon

 

[7.62mm]

jc121, didn't mean to step on your tongue.

Dobe:

A few thoughts. As you have seen, if you like competition and want to excel, get an AR and you will have a decent CQB rifle.

If you prefer a .30 Cal Main Battle Rifle, then get the M1A. You won't be as competitive against the ARs but it is a lot of fun. The M1A, as John Denver used to sing, "Fills up your senses"!

The M1A is harder to shoot well. It, and the Garand, are demanding and as one poster said, one has to have one's rapid-fire positions down perfect to shoot good groups.

The AR would probably be cheaper to start, especially if you start competing on the reduced range courses. You can get by without a scope, but it is aggravating in practice because you can't see where your shots are going.

In any event, shooting competition will really sharpen ones marksmanship skills. It forces me to keep in shape, practice, and handle the weapon regularly. All good things.

Good luck and Godspeed.

Let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Regards,

7.62mm

 

[Dobe]

Gentlemen:
I went to the local gun store today, in order to look at AR's. I looked at an Armalite for about 1500 - National Match. What do you think?

Also, why not a flat top? Is it legal in all matches? The concept is great.

 

[gk1]

$1500 is too much to spend on a rifle with those capabilities, when the same thing can be purchased for <$1000.

The flat top isn't legal for Service Rifle competition.

As stated, buy either a Rock River, Bushmaster, or call John at White Oak Precision (http://alccrl.org/whiteoak/whiteoak.htm and see what he can do for you. While you're at it, check GunsAmerica, Auction Arms, or a similar site for an FFL near you that will do a cheap transfer for you. Spend the savings on a spotting scope or shooting coat upgrade, and you'll have the expensive durable stuff out of the way.

George

 

[Steve Smith]

First of all, Sven, most guys in Cali either use M1As or shoot in Match Rifle division with a tricked out bolt gun (a better option because you will be as competitive as anyone at Perry or anywhere else out of state).



Ok, I have been in airports and a hotel for the last 24 hours (Jon I JUST got to North Carolina!) so I haven't been able to chat with you guys like I normally do. I'll be in and out until Monday.

$1500 is WAY too much for a Service Rifle AR...especially a factory stock one! IF I pay that much it had better come with be best Kreiger barrel that John Holliger can find and it should also come with a Playboy model as well. IOW, you shouldn't pay more thn about $1K for a factory Service Rifle. I don't have the time to tell you how but JC121 can tell you how if he hasn't already. My suggestion is RRA all the way, and have Holliger build his RRA upper for you...you'll still be under $1K for the rifle. You don't want to get the Bushy CMP IMHO because you'll have to replace that atrocious trigger than that will raise the price another $150 or so...the rest of the gun is great but the trigger is an abortion.

Anyway, you can sped a ton on this game if you want, but somewhere back on TFL I gave some "cheap" tips for beginners. Search the Competition forum for "cheap" and my name. Not the best stuff, but it will get you competing. Put your money in the following items first and in order: Gun, scope, scope stand, sling, coat, some reloading gear. All else (mat, glove, cart, you name it) can be hobblled together with what you have untill you get more scratch. Gotta go...will type more later.

 

[Dobe]

Thanks again. I will continue the research. And by the way. I just got back from North Carolina. I go up there often on business.

 

[Steve Smith]

To add to what Jon said earlier, and to give other options, I'll type a little more.

As far as guns go, the Armalite, RRA, and Bushys are all great factory guns but only the RRA has that great trigger out of the box. They are often too light and will get you disqualifed at Perry or a big state match, so its best to send it to John and have him tune it for $25...can't beat that with a stick. That way you'll have a great, dependable trigger that is just a hair over 4.5 lbs so you're legal as can be. The other brands of guns have problems of their own such as weak float tubes and wobbly non-repeatable sights. Things that the casual AR shooter would never notice or care about will be a real problem for you.

For slings, that new Turner biothane is about the best thing since sliced bread. Before they came out I got myself a custom Les Tam sling and it is better than the leather Turners, but the biothane is kind of a breed of its own and is SR and CMP legal. It doesn't look even a third as good as the Les Tam, but this isn't a beauty contest. I like a little history on my gun and I'll keep the Tam sling and get another or two for my other match guns, but I do think that the Turner Biothane is a RCH better as far as holding. Les uses WWI frogs on his slings and the leather and keepers are the best you can find.

For ammo, I also agree that you should put absolutely nothing down the barrel except match ammo. This is not because it will hurt the gun! This is why:

Your barrel has a finite but unknown amount of rounds it will fire before it will start to fall apart at 600 yards.

Each round you fire takes a chunk out of that life.

Each round fired should either be a learning experience or a match experience or both. Wasted ammo down that barrel will only teach you bad habbits and encourage a non-chalant attitude when you are at a match. IOW, when you pick up that rifle you should never have a "blasting" urge...that thing is for business and business only.

Shooting cheap ammo from a match rifle will only confuse you when you check your target or see your scores. Since you don't know how accurate it is, how do you know whether the poor shot was because of you or because of the lousy ammo?


Even better than the Black Hills price is some Hornady ammo. It is in LC brass just like the Black Hills but is topped with the Hornady 75 grain BTHP. I shoot 80 SMKs at 600 myself, but I know quite a few guys using this ammo across the course and they love it. Its about $230 per 1K delivered. At that price it is almost not worth reloading (my 80's cost me about $160 per 1K) LMK if you need an address.

Hopefully I don't have any typos in this post as it is late.

 

[m14nut]

30 caliber Match rifles.....

Dobe & Steve;

Hey guys,

I have been shooting the Nationals for about 7 years now and yes, there has been a real decline in the amount of 30's on the line. I currently shoot and have been shooting the M1A, the only other rifle I ever shot in the matches is the Garand.

The Mouse guns have all but taken over the Nationals, they are very accurate, especially when built into competion rifles such as G. David Tubb has used. The so called "30 cal rule" has even been eliminated do to the .223.

They are easier to shoot due to reduced weight and recoil.
The .223 is an inherently accurate round given the correct load specs. and bullet.

In the league that I shoot in they do not differentiate classes such as match rifle vs. service rifle. [a whole 'nother issue, that's not why I'm posting] this is where the AR's shine.....BUT

My M1A is consistent at all ranges, out to 600....where the little .223 gets pushed around in the wind. The recoil is not that of an AR, but if you learn and condition yourself to the M1A recoil is NOT a factor.

I would suggest you shoot both rifles first/ go to a match. Some clubs will even let NRA members shoot the matches and rent club rifles. My club, owns Garands and AR's from Bushie, which they rent to NRA members who wish to shoot. Once you are done you must clean the rifle, but they are in the process of buying an ultra-sonic......

Bottom line is shoot 'em both then deceide. My advice is buy the M1A, but as you can tell, I'm jaded.

Try this.

www.jarheadtop.com

 

[Dobe]

M14nut,
Sounds like good advice, and I like the M14/M1a. I like the round and the sights, the feel, and ....

The problem is what I have been reading since my first post on this thread. After Steve responded, I did more research. I have called a few members of local clubs. Others have responded on this thread. The consenses is that it would be much cheaper to get started with an AR. Cheap equates to getting started sooner.

I shot both in the Army. Both are good weapons. But I think I will start with the AR. But let me tell you something else. I will own and shoot an M14/M1A some day.

 

[uglymofo]

Cheap equates to getting started sooner.

I hate to rain on my own parade; if that's your desire, and ya just can't wait (I know the feeling!), then as much as I prefer the M1A, my advice is AR15 all the way.

Getting the M1A to shoot "half as well" as the AR will cost ~twice the money (in gunsmithing costs alone). With what little experience I have, I'd say it'll take twice as long (in a time sense) to learn to shoot it well and consistently, especially under time pressures. Go AR first.

 

[Steve Smith]

M14nut, . I agree that recoil isn't a real factor with a good position...re-read my post about M14 costs vs. AR costs and you'll know the real reason the M14 has lost favor.

Now, since the 600 yard slow prone event is two fifths of the National Match course and one quarter of the Regional Match course, your statement would mean that the mouseguns would have an upper hand only until the slowfire portion of the match, and then we'd all just be blown away by the mighty .30 cals. Umm, sorry, but the M14s just don't win anymore, and the 600 yard scores and records haven't gone down with the use of the AR...they have gone UP. We aint shootin' 55 grainers. If the M14 was all that for match shooting, do you really think the Marine and Army teams would have switched? No way! Those who are not too set in their ways have already switched. The records have fallen AT EVERY YARD LINE, and the new kid on the block is undisputed. When the next Service Rifle comes along I'll pick it up and use it if its as good or better than an AR. Remember, this is not a "macho" contest...it is ONLY a shooting contest. Use the best equipment you can.

 

[m14nut]

Steve- bub:

My comments were based on my personal experience at the club that I shoot at. The 600 line is actually above the targets and so to shoot at them you're kinda shooting down hill. The wind that whips thru my range is enough to make even the 80 grainers drift almost 4" at times.

The AR is by far taking this sport by storm, but the 30 cal still has it's place and does win at times. My comments were not one of a Macho stance as you have stated (bub), but of experience. If you re-read my post also, I suggested that Dobe try both rifles and deceide which he prefers.

My posts were not intended to be a narrow minded AR vs. M1A statement, but instead another point of view about the M1A. Almost in the same line as some shooters do not shoot semi-auto, but instead stick to their bolt guns such as the 40x and Savage BT112 series as well as others.

So interpret my post as you will....or not.


m14nut.

 

[uglymofo]

it is ONLY a shooting contest. Use the best equipment you can.

EEyup. The game we're discussing is focussed on precision and accuracy. If the purpose of these competitions were knocking down steel at "long" range, the AR would disappear from this game overnight. Since that's not the case, the AR will remain king of the hill.

For them's of us that are too 'set in our ways' or were caught by the PRK bans (like me--I didn't get into rifles until after the ban, so the AR's are automatically off my list of choices) we're 'stuck' with the M1A as one of our few service rifle choices.

 

[Gewehr98]

Uglymofo, there are far worse choices...

For them's of us that are too 'set in our ways' or were caught by the PRK bans (like me--I didn't get into rifles until after the ban, so the AR's are automatically off my list of choices) we're 'stuck' with the M1A as one of our few service rifle choices.

Especially since the mousegun in the PRK is being sold either without the pistol grip attached (uncomfortable at best) or by folks like DPMS as a pump-action gun. A muzzle-braked M14/M1A seems quite preferable in that environment.

And, were the military able to support the maintenance of the M14 system, it wouldn't have fallen from favor at the 600-1000 yard target range so recently. There's just no logistic train to feed the M14, save for the few M-21 and DMR rifles in the loop. You could probably count the number of M14 armorers in any branch of service on one hand. The modular Stoner gasgun is considerably easier to maintain and interchange spare parts, and as such, will remain a favorite until the next iteration of issue rifle comes out. (If it's the OICW, the armorer may have to be MCSE/A+ certified, too) Not that I think it's gonna be a popular long-range target rifle, either, with the 10" .223 barrel under the 20mm grenade barrel.

I still compete at High Power matches with my M14NM, but the longest range I have here in Central Florida is 600 meters. I cried when the .30 caliber rule went away.

But that doesn't mean I have AR-15 on the brain. Far from it, I own two of the poodleshooters. One preban Colt Competition HBAR would sell for $1200.00 were I to let go of it. I'm hoping the '94 Crime Bill will sunset, so that the prices on these guns will drop. I don't feel the sum of the parts in the gun represent $1200.00, considering it's just a bayonet lug and flash hider that separate it from the postban variants. But I've got it, just in case the AW ban doesn't sunset. I tried the Colt for High Power, and it felt as clunky to me as my quickly-sold Glock 17. My scores reflected the discomfort. It's a great gun for practicing before my yearly M16 qualifications, and a fun gun to punch paper with. But not during the course of fire for NRA High Power. That honor still goes to my M14NM.

Dobe, I wish you luck in your search. It may be something as simple as which gun feels good to you. Too bad you can't test drive either of them before committing to a purchase. Then you could make your decision based on your own actual experience, and avoid being called a "bub" if you err on the side of the M14/M1A. And just think, were you to need a rifle that could do more than poke a hole in paper out there past 600 yards, you would have the extra confidence of a .30 caliber!

 

[Steve Smith]

"Bub" was friendly, but I took it out.


Anyway, I too have encouraged Dobe to try both...but the answer today is the same as yesterday, and will most likely be the same after he tries both. There is really only one solution for the person who is just starting Service Rifle, and that of course is the AR, wimpy or not. I haven't once suggested that the AR is much of a fighting tool, but this thread isn't really about that, is it?