Machine Gun, SEAR & Silencer NFA Questions, Michigan.

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silent_killer

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Ok, I know this subject has been touched on many times, and I am sure most of you are sick and tired of reading, re-reading and answering the same questions over and over again.

Now mind you, I have done most of my research, finding bits an pieces of information from here and there and trying to put it all together.

Here are my questions:

1: To legally buy a Pre-ban machinegun, do you HAVE to have a FFL with Class 3 SOT, or can you just use the NFA Transfer via ATF form 5320.4 and the $200 tax stamp?

2: Does buying a Suppressor follow the same procedures as the MG, except for the fact that you can buy new suppressors, as long as they are from a Class 3/Type 2/NFA dealer? Just use the NFA Transfer form 5320.4 from the dealer to the citizen along with the tax stamp of $200?

3: When dealing with an Auto SEAR, does the SEAR have to be preban registered along with the rifle, or can the rifle be post-ban as long as the sear is preban? And does this follow the same NFA Transfer?

One last question not regarding the ownership or transfer of NFA.

If you legally purchase/acquire a suppressor, can it be used at an open range (public), as long as you show legal ownership of the suppressor, or are there only certain places they can be used?


Pretty much I am looking for the most detailed information, for myself, to purchase a preban Machine gun and to buy a suppressor. I have no Criminal history and I hold a Michigan Resident CPL, nothing more, I want to know what I personally have to do to make it right.

Thanks in advance!
 
No, ordinary people buy pre-May of 1986 MGs all the time.

Yes, correct along with the fact you can make your own on a Form 1 application and paying the tax.

It depends. Some cases, the sear is the MG, while in some it's the receiver. If for example you have an M16 where the receiver is registered, you don't worry about the sear - if it breaks, replace it, if you need spares, buy them. If the sear is the registered part, as in H&K Fleming guns for example, it in itself is the MG.

Last answer, yes, use it anywhere it's okay (some ranges don't welcome NFA items)

You may also wish to do more research into what's legal in Michigan. I'm unsure of the state-level NFA laws - many states restrict NFA items.


I hope that helps. :)




P.S. What a user name to be asking about silencers! :eek: :scrutiny:
 
Just be aware that it's a bad idea to obtain a SOT just so you can own a silencer. You really have to be "in the business" of selling MG's or silencers to have that license. The ATF does take that seriously. The SOT endorsement is also expensive and those fees are on top of the regular FFL fees.
 
Trebor said:
Just be aware that it's a bad idea to obtain a SOT just so you can own a silencer. You really have to be "in the business" of selling MG's or silencers to have that license. The ATF does take that seriously. The SOT endorsement is also expensive and those fees are on top of the regular FFL fees.
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Understandable... I was more or less just seeking the answer out of that one... So it seems as holding a FFL class 3 SOT that it supersedes all the state rules as those NFA items being restricted or not.

Yes, I would definitely not be looking to go after FFL just to own a suppressor, I will wait until I am in AZ for that!

Was really seeking the MG and SEAR answers.

So other than being approved by ATF, there is nothing other than the NFA Transfer form and fingerprints and the certificate of compliance to obtain a preban MG?
 
Was really seeking the MG and SEAR answers.

So other than being approved by ATF, there is nothing other than the NFA Transfer form and fingerprints and the certificate of compliance to obtain a preban MG?
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You also have to get a sign off from your local "chief law enforcement officer." This is required on your Form 4. The chief LEO can be your local chief of police, Sheriff, MSP state police representive (won't happen) and certain types of Judges. The ATF has more info on who qualifies as a local chief LEO.

Personally, I say try for the LEO sign off, and if you can't get it, then you can form a trust or corporation. In that case the sign off is not needed. The gun would be the property of the trust or corporation though.

Make sure you have a lawyer fill out and file the trust paperwork. Don't do it yourself or use software to do it as if you make a mistake the trust can be invalid and you will have illegal possesion of that MG.

If you go the corporate route, start a new corporation that JUST owns the MG. If you put it into your existing corporation it becomes an asset of the corporation and could be lost if the corp goes bankrupt, has a judgement against it, etc. I know of guys who have lost guns this way.

As far as the sear, according to the ATF the "registered sear" *is* the machine gun. Some guns have registered receivers where the reciever is the MG and the sear or other MG parts can not be installed in a semi-auto. For other guns just the actual sear was registered as the MG. In those cases (mostly) the sear can be removed and installed in a "host gun." The host gun can be post ban because the sear is the MG, not the host gun.

Be aware that Michigan's prohibition on SBR's still applies. If you have a registered receiver gun, say an UZI, it can have a short barrel as it is a MG and not a SBR.

But, if all you have is a registered sear, in Michigan, you would have to install it on a rifle with a 16" barrel. That's because in Michigan you can't own a SBR, even if you want to use it as a "host gun" for a registered sear. The sear is the MG, not the rifle, so the rifle still has to meet Michigan laws, and we prohibit SBR's.

Personally, I would go as far to say that you should not buy registered sear already installed in a host gun if the host gun has less than a 16" barrel. As soon as you remove the registered sear the host gun would be illegal in Michigan and, to the best of my understanding, even with the registered sear installed the host gun is still most likely an illegal SBR in Michigan.
 
Trebor said:
You also have to get a sign off from your local "chief law enforcement officer." This is required on your Form 4. The chief LEO can be your local chief of police, Sheriff, MSP state police representive (won't happen) and certain types of Judges. The ATF has more info on who qualifies as a local chief LEO.

Personally, I say try for the LEO sign off, and if you can't get it, then you can form a trust or corporation. In that case the sign off is not needed. The gun would be the property of the trust or corporation though.

Make sure you have a lawyer fill out and file the trust paperwork. Don't do it yourself or use software to do it as if you make a mistake the trust can be invalid and you will have illegal possesion of that MG.

If you go the corporate route, start a new corporation that JUST owns the MG. If you put it into your existing corporation it becomes an asset of the corporation and could be lost if the corp goes bankrupt, has a judgement against it, etc. I know of guys who have lost guns this way.

As far as the sear, according to the ATF the "registered sear" *is* the machine gun. Some guns have registered receivers where the reciever is the MG and the sear or other MG parts can not be installed in a semi-auto. For other guns just the actual sear was registered as the MG. In those cases (mostly) the sear can be removed and installed in a "host gun." The host gun can be post ban because the sear is the MG, not the host gun.

Be aware that Michigan's prohibition on SBR's still applies. If you have a registered receiver gun, say an UZI, it can have a short barrel as it is a MG and not a SBR.

But, if all you have is a registered sear, in Michigan, you would have to install it on a rifle with a 16" barrel. That's because in Michigan you can't own a SBR, even if you want to use it as a "host gun" for a registered sear. The sear is the MG, not the rifle, so the rifle still has to meet Michigan laws, and we prohibit SBR's.

Personally, I would go as far to say that you should not buy registered sear already installed in a host gun if the host gun has less than a 16" barrel. As soon as you remove the registered sear the host gun would be illegal in Michigan and, to the best of my understanding, even with the registered sear installed the host gun is still most likely an illegal SBR in Michigan.
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awesome info! Thank you!

If I can obtain CLEO sign off, is it recommended that I still have a lawyer fill out the paperwork, or were you referring to that if I had to form a trust?
 
If you get the LEO sign off you don't need a lawyer. The MG dealer who will accept the gun for you and transfer it to you can help you with the paperwork. (This assumes you buy a gun from out of state. If you find a gun in state you don't neccesarily have to use a MG dealer).

But, if you form a trust, have an attorney draw up the paperwork. While many people are using "Trustmaker" type software, if you make a mistake and the trust isn't valid in Michigan, you are liable.
 
Very understandable, and a situation I don't want to find myself in, better to pay the lawyer... Thanks again for the information.
 
Btw, Silentkiller, there's a full-auto fun shoot tommorow at Wolverine in Brownstown, Mi. The sponsor is a FFL SOT and can answer questiosn about owning MG's in Michigan. Look for my other post about it.
 
So it seems as holding a FFL class 3 SOT that it supersedes all the state rules as those NFA items being restricted or not.
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No, it doesn't. As noted, a non-SOT can't have a suppressor in Michigan. But no one, other than LE agencies, can have a non-C&R SBR or SBS in Michigan. The law is different for each.
 
CleverNickname said:
No, it doesn't. As noted, a non-SOT can't have a suppressor in Michigan. But no one, other than LE agencies, can have a non-C&R SBR or SBS in Michigan. The law is different for each.
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Ok, gotcha... Makes sense...

Quick question, would an MP5K clone be considered a SBR, or do they deem them as pistols? I am assuming it would be a SBR, which means I couldnt get one while in Michigan correct?
 
MP5K doesn't have a stock. With a foregrip, it'd be a AOW, without one, it would be a handgun Federally. Might be different in MI.
 
In MI, the MP5K fully automatic would be a machine gun. You can have a short barrel on a machine gun.

If the MP5K is a semi automatic with foregrip, it's an AOW and is legal in MI but must also be registered as a pistol since it's less than 30 inches long.

Letter of the law, machine guns less than 30 inches must also be registered as a pistol (with no CPL privileges,sorry), however the AG office says they won't require it but if you do that's OK with them.
 
RhinoDefense said:
In MI, the MP5K fully automatic would be a machine gun. You can have a short barrel on a machine gun.

If the MP5K is a semi automatic with foregrip, it's an AOW and is legal in MI but must also be registered as a pistol since it's less than 30 inches long.

Letter of the law, machine guns less than 30 inches must also be registered as a pistol (with no CPL privileges,sorry), however the AG office says they won't require it but if you do that's OK with them.
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So if I bought say a SP89 and wanted to add a foregrip to it, I would have to send the gun to a Class 2 SOT FFL and have the grip installed, and then do an ATF Form 4 transfer for AOW and pay the $5.00 SOT and have the gun transferred back to me?

But without the foregrip as long as its Semi-Auto its only considered a pistol then correct?
 
So if I bought say a SP89 and wanted to add a foregrip to it, I would have to send the gun to a Class 2 SOT FFL and have the grip installed, and then do an ATF Form 4 transfer for AOW and pay the $5.00 SOT and have the gun transferred back to me?
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No. You could simply file a Form 1 to "make" the AOW yourself. Pay $200 and wait for your stamp. When stamp arrives, install forward grip. Cheaper that way in the end.
 
Unless the C2's fee to manufacture the gun is more than $195, silent killer's method is cheaper.
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[strike]Someone has to pay the $200 fee for the making stamp, no? Sure, it transfers on a $5 stamp, but unless the manufacturer wants to eat the making tax, he's most likely going to pass that along.[/strike]

On second thought, a manufacturer can make one on a Form 2 and I don't think he has to pay the $200 per. Of course, he has a lot of other costs -- including his own Class 02 Special Occupational Tax (a lot more than $200) which he will pay partially out of the fees he charges the purchaser.

His labor, parts mark-up, and fees could end up still being cheaper than $200, so maybe. Have to check with a manufacturer to find out.
 
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Assuming silent killer provided the foregrip (which he'd have to do too if he form 1'd the gun himself), the C2 would just be doing paperwork and engraving the gun with his name and location. The foregrip on an SP89 attaches with one pushpin, so there'd be negligible labor involved in the actual "manufacture" of the gun. Also remember that unless silent killer has the appropriate metal stamping/engraving tools, he'd still have to pay someone to engrave the gun if he decided to go the form 1 route. So I think it's almost certain the C2 route would be cheaper. The only advantage to doing a form 1 would be that he would retain possession of the gun while waiting for the form to be approved and could still shoot it while waiting.
 
I'm a Class 2 SOT in MI. Cheapest method for making an AOW is having a Class 2 manufacturer do everything.

Filing a Form 1 costs $200 in transfer tax.

Filing a Form 2 is no tax by the manufacturer (since I pay an annual tax) then filing a Form 4 to transfer to the owner is $5 tax.

The customer is looking at $5 transfer tax plus parts & labor versus $200 tax and he does the labor himself. There's $195 to work with and most customers don't want their personal name on a firearm forever, so it's an easy sell.
 
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