Makarov question

[dzimmerm]

Hello,

I recently purchased a Bulgarian Makarov and I have enjoyed shooting it. The question I have is this.

Can you take a cheap wolf target cartridge and remove the factory Ball and then put a hornady HP bullet in its place?

This would seem to be an inexpensive way to get carry loads for the Makarov.

I have no idea if this is possible in the real world.

This would save me finding brass, primers, powder.

My concerns would be decrimping and then recrimping without hurting the powder, case, primer.

Comments?

Thanks

dzimmerm

dzimmerm "at" columbus "dot" rr "dot" com

 

[Chawbaccer]

I take it you have no reloading experience so I would'nt touch your idea.
I'm sure you can find components for reloading the Mak if you search a little bit.

 

[donkee]

Midway has Mak reloading components. They are cheap enough. I would go that route............

 

[1 old 0311]

Probably would work.May be dangerous and if you ever used it in a defensive situation you be up the creek.

Kevin

 

[halvey]

May be dangerous and if you ever used it in a defensive situation you be up the creek.

Support that with a case please.

Can you take a cheap wolf target cartridge and remove the factory Ball and then put a hornady HP bullet in its place? This would seem to be an inexpensive way to get carry loads for the Makarov.

How would this be inexpensive? You'd still need a bullet puller, dies, press etc. Just buy the components and load some HP's up.

 

[Scottmkiv]

I don't think reloading the steel cased wolf would be good for anything. And, if you are going to the trouble of buying a new bullet, and reloading setup to use it, then you are most of the way towards having everything you need to load your own.

 

[RUT]

>>This would seem to be an inexpensive way to get carry loads for the Makarov. <<

This is not an area where you should be using the "inexpensive" word!

 

[dzimmerm]

Thanks for the responses

Ok,

I was thinking the consenses would be why bother. I was looking for technical reasons why it would not be prudent.

As far as inexpensive. I have taken a brief look at the Makarov website and they sell dies for reloading, for around $15.00. I have heard you can get an inexpensive Lee press for around $25.00. 100 hornady bullets I saw on the shelf of my local firing range were 100 for about $17.00. The wolf makarov rounds cost about 12 cents a cartridge.

If you buy a standard hollow point cartridge for the Makarov the price jumps substantially. They are also not as available.

My technical concern was does uncrimping and then recrimping a cartridge cause a problem? Does the fact the cartridges are laminated steel cause a problem? I have heard that you can not reload wolf due to the type of primers being used. I have also heard that the steel case would damage some reloading equipment due to it being made of a harder material than brass. I was hoping that just uncrimping and recrimping would save me the time and bother of buying brass, buying powder, and buying primers.

I know my idea was something I never heard mentioned before so I thought there might be a good reason not to try it. That is why I asked.

So far I have not heard any specific reason mentioned.

I have never reloaded anything so I am looking at this from the outside asking help of people on the inside, so to speak.

If the inside people have never tried what I am thinking of trying then I am on my own, it would seem.

If what I am suggesting is a real bad idea from a safety standpoint I would like to know why.

If what I am suggesting is a bad idea from an accuracy standpoint I would like to know why.

The benefits I see from this would be that I would in essance be using the same round for practice that I would be using for carry. Without the expense of shooting factory JHPs all the time.

Another benefit would be using a standard cartridge that has already had research done for it.

It would also save money over a period of time, assuming Wolf does not raise their prices. I could buy Wolf in 1000 round packs from outdoormarksman for way under $200.00.

Any comments directed at this idea from a safety and practicallity standpoint will be welcome.

Thanks,

dzimmerm

dzimmerm "at" columbus "dot" rr "dot" com

 

[longspurr]

Dzimmerm
If you are going the bother to pull the bullets and put in Hornadys – why not just buy some of the Factory Hornady ammo. I know they make it – I have some. The point of impact does change some between the Hornady and Wolf but in a defensive shooting the small difference would probably not be noticed.

There is some Russian manufacture that does make some HP ammo. Silver Bear? I have seen it write up as good expansion by a poster on this board that did several expansion tests.

If you really want to reload Hornady HP’s then just do a basic reload of fired Mak cases – don’t pull the bullets on live loads. Note only some are reloadable- S&B, Hornady, perhaps others

 

[Dirty Bob]

dzimmerm:

I would not mess with a steel cased round of ammo, except to shoot it and discard the empty case. It's likely to put undue wear on reloading equipment, and who knows what the pressures will be? Steel doesn't behave like brass under pressure, and all the reloading data is based on brass-cased ammo.

Components for Mak ammo are much cheaper than they used to be, and Midway carries everything. I second the idea of just buying Hornaday ammo for carry.

Stay safe and have fun with your Makarov!
Dirty Bob

 

[lee n. field]

The benefits I see from this would be that I would in essance be using the same round for practice that I would be using for carry. Without the expense of shooting factory JHPs all the time.

Except that they wouldn't be the same round. You've replaced the bullet, remember? If you don't get why that makes a difference, I suggest you get a copy of Lyman's manual and read it, and scan over the load data.

You'd be going to a lot of trouble (don't forget you're going to have to measure powder) for minimal gain. If you want Hornaday for self defense purposes, buy a few boxes. Or buy the Silver Bear JHP.

I reload for the Mak. I do it mostly because I like to have the capability (I think we may not always cheap imported ammo available). The cost involved (not even considering time spent) is quite a bit higher than buying blasting ammo from an Internet vendor.

This would save me finding brass, primers, powder.

If you're going to handload, do it right.

Brass -- size once fired 9x19 brass in Makarov dies and trim to length. Sounds off the wall, but actually works quite nicely. Trouble is, you can get almost a kiloround case of blasting ammo for what my case trimmer cost. If you want real 9x18, you'll have to go mail order for Starline brass.

Primers -- size small pistol. Available anywhere reloading supplies are sold.

Powder -- Bullseye. Ditto.

There. See. No problem finding any of that stuff.

 

[dzimmerm]

More info

Lee,

Thanks for the information.

I did not imply that parts were hard to find. I meant that mail order / internet order defensive cartridges were not found on the internet as easily as the target cartridges.

I had heard about the trimming of 9mm lugar cases so they could be used in Makarov reloading. My understanding was the bullet diameter was a bit smaller on the 9mm lugar so I guessed the cases are also slightly smaller in diameter before they are fired?

I could have all the 9mm lugar brass I could carry as that is a common round at the firing range I go to. They even provide the broom and dustpan if you want to sweep the floor at the end of firing.

I understand that bullet aerodynamics and mass and center of mass might be different between the rounds and the hornady hollow points. The powder, primer, and case would be the same though, if I used what was already there.

I agree that Wolf and it's relatives might not always be available. I had not seen any silver bear available on line. I did see some federal hydroshocks for the Makarov online but as I said, they are quite a bit more expensive than the Wolf target rounds.

Since no one that has replied has ever said they have done what I asked I will have to guess that it is not a reasonable thing to do.

I still have not heard any safety or technical reasons not to try it though. Well, other than you might damage your press. I am not knowledgable enough to know if crimping is an operation that would be likely to damage a press. I would not be resizing or trimming if I am just pulling the target bullet out and putting the hornady bullet in.

dzimmerm

 

[Dirty Bob]

Good morning,

My primary concern is that we don't have data based on the elasticity, tensile strength, and crimp strength of the steel cases. All of the data in the manuals is for brass. If, for example, you crimp the steel case onto the bullet like you would with a brass one, how much will that affect pressures? Steel work hardens, so removing the bullet and flaring for the new one, then crimping it, might work harden the neck enough to increase how tightly it holds the bullet, boosting pressures in the tiny 9x18mm case.

I can't see that it's worth any potential savings to experiment in this area. I've never heard of anyone loading or reloading steel cases. I wouldn't want to experiment in that without a means of measuring the pressures of each of my loads.

Nope, I think it's a risky proposition.

On the other hand, the Lee handheld case trimmer is fairly cheap (a few bucks). I bought one recently and intend to trim some 9x19 cases to 18mm to try my first Makarov handloads, with cast bullets. Like Lee N. Field, I like the idea of being able to "roll my own" if I have to. I mostly shoot the Russian steel-cased stuff, but I enjoy reloading as a hobby.

All my best,
Dirty Bob

 

[The Bushmaster]

As far as I am concerned...This is a hair brained and dangerous idea. Buy ready made factory ammunition of a good quality. I would never even think of using Wolf for defence.

 

[dzimmerm]

Thanks Dirty Bob

Thanks,

You gave me some thoughts I had not considered as far as not having any idea how uncrimping and recrimping would affect pressures in the case.

I will have to start pricing tools needed to reload brass.

As for it being a hairbrained idea, as stated by another responder, I was to understand that this is The High Road. If you disagree with thoughts I have put forth please try to keep the enthusiasm level damped down a bit when you disagree. I respond much better to thoughtfull explanations of why an idea is ill conceived. I think most folks do, .

I am sure somewhere in the past the thought of reloading any factory ammo was considered ill conceived. The only way an idea gets accepted if it is tried and it works. If someone were to try what I suggested and it worked then I would imagine it would not be considered ill conceived after 5 or 10 years of using a new technique.

Conservatism has it's place but it does tend to supress innovation.

"If man were meant to fly he would have been given wings"

We gave man wings.

"The jolting from a person riding in a powered carriage going over 20 MPH
will result in the passenger being turned to jelly"

The alarmists did not calculate the effects of seat padding in jolting acceleration

"Man will never reach the moon"

We did.

"The speed of sound will never be broken by a manned craft"

Read about Chuck Yeager.

So, my idea probaby really is hairbrained. That is why I asked you experienced folks . I have been putting off accumlating hand loading equipment for a while now . As I have a CZ52 and a Makarov I had best bite the bullet, so to speak, and do some research on what I need and what I can afford .

Thanks for all your comments.

dzimmerm

 

[donkee]

The only thing I suggest if you're going to use trimmed 9mm brass, find a way to mark which ones are trimmed down. If you miss a few on the range and somebody else picks them up, loads them for 9mm, you can see the problem. I measure every case after running it through the sizer die, discarding over max length cases. Not everybody measures their cases, just looking at the headstamp and trusting that. At the range I shoot, if you find a 9mm case with a green and grey X on it, it's 9x18. I am going to try to take the Dremel and put a line through the 9mm (light cut, just enought to show) that might work too and I'll let you know after Wednesday.....

 

[dzimmerm]

Great Safety Idea

Donkey,

That is a great safety idea. I had not even considered what someone else might do if they pick up brass I have fired. I would think that a buyer beware attitude would be in order for anyone picking up brass from an unknown source.

Measure twice and crimp once sounds like it would be appropriate in this case.

The proper thing to do would be to restamp the case end to 9x18 I suppose, if you trim the case down. I used to make 9s into 8s in school on occasion , lol. I guess you would have to shave off lugar also. I don't think I am up to turning lugar into mak

dzimmerm

 

[Dirty Bob]

dzimmerm:
I'm glad you've decided not to try the loading idea. Actually, if you're looking for 9x18 defense loads, Georgia Arms (www.georgia-arms.com/pistol.htm) offers a Gold Dot hollow point load. I haven't tried it yet, but they have a good reputation, and it's about $12 for 50, which is very reasonable for carry ammo. I suggest you shoot at least 100 rounds of it through your Makarov to make sure it's OK in your gun, but that's still cheaper than reloading tools. I've recently read some complaints about the Hornaday, from people who had problems with the steep HP bullet feeding in their Makarovs.

I reload because I enjoy it, and because I can make ammo thats cheaper than storebought and/or unavailable in stores, like a light target load for my wife to shoot. I'm cautious, through. I leave defense to factory ammo, and I'll probably be ordering some of the Georgia Arms ammo for myself.

donkee:
I've had the same thoughts about trimmed brass. I was planning to fill the headstamp letters and numbers with bright red or yellow nail polish to draw attention to them, but touching the 9mm marking with a dremel cut off wheel should be OK as long as you're careful to use it to make a scratch -- not a groove -- and inspect the cases afterwards.

Regards,
Dirty Bob

 

[David4516]

Conservatism has it's place but it does tend to supress innovation.

If you are going into reloading, let me give you some advice. It's ALWAYS a good idea to be conservitive. Remember, you are dealing with something that can hurt or kill you if you make even the smallest mistake.

Anyway, if/when you get started, let me share with you my prefered 9X18 Makarov "defense" load:

Bullet: 95gr Hornady XTP (0.365 diameter)
Brass: Starline
Powder Charge: 4.1gr Bullseye
Primer: CCI Small Pistol Primers
COL: 0.965 (I might be a little off on this one, I have it written down someplace but I don't have that info handy)

This load is a bit "hot", I believe the max load shown in my manual is 3.8gr of Bullseye powder. You might want to start a bit lower and work your way up (remember, saftey first). In my Makarov, this load gives me about 1050 feet per second, and I have done some expansion tests on water jugs, the XTP retains most its weight and expands to about .60 caliber...

 

[saands]

I'm not going to disagree with what has been said before, but I will add some specifics why I don't think that pulling and stuffing 9x18 is a good idea. If someone already got to these, and I missed them, I apologize for the repetition.

First ... if you are going to "pull and stuff", using the same powder/primer, then you have to match the bullet weight and seating depth EXACTLY ... the factory stuff from Russia seems to be loaded toward the hot end, so you can't do anything (like seating deeper or using a heavier bullet) that will increase the chamber pressure. Since you are wanting to go to a JHP, your new bullet will have a hollow point ... well, for the same weight with a hollow point you end up with a longer bullet, right? Where are you going to put the excess length ... you can't put it INSIDE the case (the pressure will spike if you do) and if it just sticks out farther, it may not fit in the mag and fi it does, it may seat against the lands ... increasing pressure. All of these are dangerous and I don't think that there are any opinions so far ... just the facts.

Second, it is REALLY difficult to pull the short stubby little FMJ bullets that the 9x18 comes in ... I am not sure that you could even engage a collet puller on them. Even if you could, it is also REALLY difficult not to spill any powder when you DO pull the bullet. You will end up with wild variations in velocity or you will end up throwing a lot of them away ... one or the other, but you will spill powder and those are the only two outcomes I can see.

Recrimping (and work hardening) the steel cases has already been coverd, but this IS a real issue ... as is increased wear on your dies.

There is nothing wrong with trimming 9x19 brass, but the 9x18 starline brass from Midway is only like 9 or 10 cents a piece ... I've done the trimming routine, but I ended up deciding that it wasn't worth the hassle (nice to know you can, though!). I enjoy reloading in general ... but I didn't enjoy all that excess trimming, so now I just buy the correctly marked stuff.

Good luck ... and be safe.

Saands

 

[dzimmerm]

Thanks for all the info

That was what I wanted to know. I have an interesting deal lined up to get some "bullet making" equipment from a co-worker. This co-workers father-in-law passed away about 6 months ago and he was given the job of trying to sell the array of weapons that the father-in-law had. Apparently he was able to sell most of them but what he could not sell was a couple of presses along with quite a few supplies for reloading.

I could not afford to make an offer when the items first became for sale so I waited and I just recently asked him if he had managed to sell the "bullet making" stuff. He said he had not. He conferred with his wife and they agreed to take $100.00 for the lot. Quite a bit of stuff from what I recall seeing posted in his web page a while back. I don't have the specifices but I think I will be getting quite a bargain. At the least I will be getting some equipment to start out with. I will let you all know more once I actually have the lot down in my basement and arranged so I can verify exactly what I have.

dzimmerm

 

[saands]

If it doesn't come with a good reloading manual, that should be the first thing on your list.

Remember:
1. Only reload when you can focus on what you are doing. If you are distracted, have a beer and watch some TV ... reload a different day
2. Never rely on just one source for your load data.
3. Follow the guidance of the manual you read from cover to cover before you ever resized a case.

Good luck ... If you got a complete setup for $100, then it sounds like you got a great deal.

Saands

 

[dzimmerm]

Thanks Saands

I will try and read as much as I can before I actually start mixing brass, primers, powder, and bullets together. I hope they have some documentation with the equipment but I will be writing to the manufacturer's if they don't.

I have found most manufacturer's are happy to send you information or even small parts if you give them a good return address and some way to contact you if they have a question.

dzimmerm

 

[Hobie]

Just buy a box of the Barnaul HPs. Great ammo that expands predictably (at least in critters approaching 60 lbs). So cheap that you can use just your carry load.

 

[TooTaxed]

I bought a box of Gold Dots for the MAK for carry, and shoot the cheap Russian stuff for practice. The difference in accuracy for this reliable little gun is negligible. I reload for it also...but rarely.

I wouldn't trade bullets in the steel cases, as steel isn't resilient. Brass cases, maybe...but be sure the bullets are the same weight, and your replacement bullets are the proper diameter...and don't use your salvaged 9-mm MAK bullets in any other caliber cartridge!