Making My Kahr Thompson M1 Into A SBR M1...?

[Racer997]

I have a Kahr Thompson M1 that I bought new about 20 years ago. It has a 16 inch barrel and is SA of course. I have entertained making it a WWII replica (of sorts) by either making the barrel 10 inches or getting a 10 inch barrel and installing it. Obviously this would make it an NFA weapon, as an owner of a couple of other NFA guns that I built from kits, I get it. But I am not sure of the process to make this SBR happen.

What would my paperwork look like? What am I asking for, exactly by making my carbine into an SBR? It already has a SN and a manufacturer, so what about that...?

Thanks for the help!

 

[dogtown tom]

.... But I am not sure of the process to make this SBR happen.

File Form 1, pay $200 tax, on approval install a short bbl or cut the existing bbl. Then engrave with makers name and location on receiver or bbl.

What would my paperwork look like?

https://www.atf.gov/file/11281/download
But I highly recommend using eForms because approval is faster.

What am I asking for, exactly by making my carbine into an SBR?

The Form 1 is for making an NFA firearm, in your case a short barreled rifle.

It already has a SN and a manufacturer, so what about that...?

That info will be needed when you fill out the Form 1.

 

[AlexanderA]

File Form 1, pay $200 tax, on approval install a short bbl or cut the existing bbl. Then engrave with makers name and location on receiver or bbl.

I might add that the "maker's" name to be engraved is that of the person filing the Form 1, not the original manufacturer.

 

[Racer997]

Good info. To me more clear, Kahr / Auto Ordnance makes a 10.5 barrel, and should they ever come back into stock, that's what I would like to use. However, I don't want to box myself in with words and might also want to modify the barrel I have now. Note boxes a, b, c, g, h and i...

Box a: Is this what the ATF wants to see here?

Box b - Is this what the ATF wants to see here?

Box c - Is this what the ATF wants to see here?

Box g - Is this what the ATF wants to see here?

Box h: Is this good enough? Is it what the ATF wants to see here?

Box i: I have used these words before on other Form 1s from the past. Is it still good enough?

Also, you're saying I can engrave the barrel? I did not know I could do that; I thought I could only engrave the receiver?

 

[Rule3]

Perhaps if you can find one add a folding stock? Paratrooper

https://shopkahrfirearmsgroup.com/parts-accessories/auto-ordnance/m1-carbine/

 

[Racer997]

Perhaps if you can find one add a folding stock? Paratrooper

https://shopkahrfirearmsgroup.com/parts-accessories/auto-ordnance/m1-carbine/

Thompson M1, not M1 carbine. The folder is cool, though...

 

[dogtown tom]

Good info. To me more clear, Kahr / Auto Ordnance makes a 10.5 barrel, and should they ever come back into stock, that's what I would like to use. However, I don't want to box myself in with words and might also want to modify the barrel I have now. Note boxes a, b, c, g, h and i...

Box a: Is this what the ATF wants to see here?

Oh heck no. Are you the original manufacturer? Nope.....its the original manufacturer of the firearm....Kahr/Auto Ordnance/whatever is marked on the existing firearm.

Box b - Is this what the ATF wants to see here?
Box c - Is this what the ATF wants to see here?
Box g - Is this what the ATF wants to see here?

Correct, don't forget Box f.

Box h: Is this good enough? Is it what the ATF wants to see here?

No, ATF wants the MAKERS NAME, CITY, STATE that you will engrave on the firearm. See instructions for 2d "completion of form"
Example: If the applicant is John James Doe, 123 Main St, Sometown, Texas 75023..........you engrave "John James Doe, Sometown, TX " on the receiver or barrel.
Example: If the applicant is a trust/corp/etc, only the full name of the entity is engraved.....as in "John James Doe Family NFA Firearm Trust, Sometime, TX"
Hopefully whoever wrote up your trust used a short name like "In God We Trust" or "Doe Trust".

Box i: I have used these words before on other Form 1s from the past. Is it still good enough?

Its fine.

Also, you're saying I can engrave the barrel? I did not know I could do that; I thought I could only engrave the receiver?

From the Form 1 instructions: "7) Markings: The maker is required to mark the firearm with the maker’s name, city and state as shown in item 3b. All markings are to be in compliance with 27 CFR 478.92 and 479.102. "


https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...0f4d6dd&mc=true&node=se27.3.479_1102&rgn=div8

§479.102 How must firearms be identified?
(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:

(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1⁄16 inch; and

(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:

(i) The model, if such designation has been made.

(ii) The caliber or gauge;

(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;

(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm; and..............................

 

[AlexanderA]

The reason you want to engrave your name on the barrel, rather than the receiver, is that it leaves the receiver intact. Then later, if you want to sell it, you can put a 16"+ barrel back on and sell it as a regular Title I gun. (It's more marketable that way, since the buyer doesn't have to pay a $200 transfer tax.)

 

[Rule3]

Thompson M1, not M1 carbine. The folder is cool, though...

OOPS sorry.

 

[Racer997]

Oh heck no. Are you the original manufacturer? Nope.....its the original manufacturer of the firearm....Kahr/Auto Ordnance/whatever is marked on the existing firearm.


Correct, don't forget Box f.


No, ATF wants the MAKERS NAME, CITY, STATE that you will engrave on the firearm. See instructions for 2d "completion of form"
Example: If the applicant is John James Doe, 123 Main St, Sometown, Texas 75023..........you engrave "John James Doe, Sometown, TX " on the receiver or barrel.
Example: If the applicant is a trust/corp/etc, only the full name of the entity is engraved.....as in "John James Doe Family NFA Firearm Trust, Sometime, TX"
Hopefully whoever wrote up your trust used a short name like "In God We Trust" or "Doe Trust".


Its fine.



From the Form 1 instructions: "7) Markings: The maker is required to mark the firearm with the maker’s name, city and state as shown in item 3b. All markings are to be in compliance with 27 CFR 478.92 and 479.102. "


https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...0f4d6dd&mc=true&node=se27.3.479_1102&rgn=div8

Ha! I should read those instructions better. It has been a long time since I filled out a Form 1, and the last time it was spoon fed to me. Speaking of the last time, the last time I did one I did it without a trust. I believe I will make a trust for this one. Can I move my other Class III guns that list me as the manufacturer to a trust I create? I suppose if that can do it will require another Form 1 / tax stamp...?

Also, maybe I am just missing it, but I do not see where a barrel can be marked. The text says, "engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number."

Also, how do I arrive at a SN for this? Last time I built an SBR, simply used the SN that NoDak had on the receivers, but a barrel isn't serializes0 unless I make it so, so do I simply make up my own number...?

 

[dogtown tom]

..... Can I move my other Class III guns that list me as the manufacturer to a trust I create? I suppose if that can do it will require another Form 1 / tax stamp...?

1. You aren't a manufacturer. A manufacturer is licensed, you aren't. You are a "maker".
2. Transferring NFA firearms from an individual to a trust/corp/LLC/etc or vice versa requires a Form 4 and tax payment for each NFA firearm.

Also, maybe I am just missing it, but I do not see where a barrel can be marked. The text says, "engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number."

You missed it. Reread post #7 above. I underlined and bolded the applicable text.

(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:
(i) The model, if such designation has been made;
(ii) The caliber or gauge;
(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;
(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm; and....

Also, how do I arrive at a SN for this?

You use the serial# thats already on the firearm.

Last time I built an SBR, simply used the SN that NoDak had on the receivers, but a barrel isn't serializes0 unless I make it so, so do I simply make up my own number...?

Again, please reread my posts. The only additional information you need to engrave is the makers name/city/state. That's it. The serial# and caliber are already there. The manufacturers name/city/state are already there.

 

[Racer997]

1. You aren't a manufacturer. A manufacturer is licensed, you aren't. You are a "maker".
2. Transferring NFA firearms from an individual to a trust/corp/LLC/etc or vice versa requires a Form 4 and tax payment for each NFA firearm.



You missed it. Reread post #7 above. I underlined and bolded the applicable text.







You use the serial# thats already on the firearm.


Again, please reread my posts. The only additional information you need to engrave is the makers name/city/state. That's it. The serial# and caliber are already there. The manufacturers name/city/state are already there.

Copy. In totality, all of these answers make sense. Trying to piece it together was confusing. Thanks much..!

 

[MachIVshooter]

Like Tom said, you don't have to come up with a new S/N, and don't have to mark caliber that's already denoted, nor do you have to engrave on the receiver.

Your name/trust name and city & state. That's it.

Engraving has to be readily visible (no need to remove parts with tools to expose it) and meet requirements (minimum 1/16" tall characters, .003" depth), but you can do it discreetly. Inside a mag well, underside of the receiver or the (short) barrel, etc.