Some 10.3 - 11.5 barreled AR questions

[Mags]

Thinking about making an SBR from my current 16 inch AR for adding a can. Some questions I have are:

1. What is the efective range of the 10-11.5 inch barrels?

2. Which length is more reliable suppressed?

3. Is an H weighted buffer best for the 10-11.5 inch lengths?

Legal Questions:

1. Is the registered lower considered an SBR with the 16 inch upper installed?

2. If no, then I am assuming I could transport the 16 inch SBR registered rifle freely?

Thanks

 

[Rail Driver]

1. Is the registered lower considered an SBR with the 16 inch upper installed?

2. If no, then I am assuming I could transport the 16 inch SBR registered rifle freely?

#1 yes.

#2 not without the proper ATF paperwork being filed, and not into a state that prohibits SBR

 

[Sam1911]

1. Is the registered lower considered an SBR with the 16 inch upper installed?

Yes.

2. If no, then I am assuming I could transport the 16 inch SBR registered rifle freely?

This is a matter I have some confusion about. Yes, you need to file the 5230.20 form to take it into other states, but I am not certain whether the registered status of that weapon would violate the law in, say IL or some other states that prohibits them, or whether that gun would only be illegal if configured with a short barrel at the time.

And it is possible that the ATF may deny the 5230.20 simply because the law in the state you want to visit prohibits them, and you'd have to try and explain that you won't have it configured as such, etc.

 

[Mags]

Thanks fellas. Any ideas on effective range of 62-77 grain projectiles out of such a short 1/7 twist barrel? I am thinking 300 meters?

 

[Chopdoktor]

Regarding the buffer, I use a Spike's H2 buffer in my 11.5", and it really makes it recoil and run nicely. I have no trouble cycling any ammo with it, and the kick (if that's what you call it, with a poodle shooter caliber like .223, haha) is noticeably reduced. As for "effective range", do you mean frag range, or 'put a hole in something' range? Because you're looking at well under 50 yards of reliable fragmentation range even with an 11.5" barrel. One solution is to use highly fragmenting, heavy ammo.

 

[Mags]

I mean lethal range.

 

[taliv]

range depends on the ammo you shoot. if you shoot ammo designed to fragment, which usually requires at least 2400 fps, then the lower muzzle velocity means you'll have a reduced range. (iirc, which i probably don't, you're looking at something around 140-160 yrds)

but if you use ammo designed to expand, then your range would probably be much further

 

[CleverNickname]

This is a matter I have some confusion about. Yes, you need to file the 5230.20 form to take it into other states, but I am not certain whether the registered status of that weapon would violate the law in, say IL or some other states that prohibits them, or whether that gun would only be illegal if configured with a short barrel at the time.

And it is possible that the ATF may deny the 5230.20 simply because the law in the state you want to visit prohibits them, and you'd have to try and explain that you won't have it configured as such, etc.

If a gun is temporarily reconfigured so that it's in a configuration where it's legal in the destination state (e.g. attaching a >=16" upper instead of a <16" upper to an AR15) the owner can take it to another state, without filing a form 5320.20. There's no way that anyone would know it's a title II firearm. Anyway, what would they be charged with? Having a barrel that's equal to or above the legal length?

The ATF won't approve a 5320.20 with a destination where that firearm would be illegal, but they will approve passing through a state where that firearm is illegal, as the owner can be covered by 18 USC 926A, assuming they transport the firearm according to the law. However, some states ignore that law. I wouldn't risk it, myself.

 

[Girodin]

If a gun is temporarily reconfigured so that it's in a configuration where it's legal in the destination state (e.g. attaching a >=16" upper instead of a <16" upper to an AR15) the owner can take it to another state, without filing a form 5320.20.

Citation?

There's no way that anyone would know it's a title II firearm.

what about the serial number on the side of it being registered with BATF and all?

Also these things are typically engraved which is somewhat of a give away

Anyway, what would they be charged with? Having a barrel that's equal to or above the legal length

I've done no research into this area but depending on how statutes are written it seems that one could make some arguments. Again I haven't researched it at all but I would make no assumptions.

As for me I'd build a separate lower to put my 16" upper on if I really needed to take it there. It would be a couple hundred dollars well spent IMHO. Why risk it if there is any gray area.

 

[Sam1911]

If a gun is temporarily reconfigured so that it's in a configuration where it's legal in the destination state (e.g. attaching a >=16" upper instead of a <16" upper to an AR15) the owner can take it to another state, without filing a form 5320.20.

This is exactly what I would like to see some documentation about. IS it legal to do so or not? If it is a registered weapon, it is a registered weapon and my understanding is they want to know where you're going with it.

There's no way that anyone would know it's a title II firearm. Anyway, what would they be charged with? Having a barrel that's equal to or above the legal length?

Sure there is. The engraving could be a giveaway, at least. Would an officer think to -- or even care to -- hassle you about it? Hard to say. I'm asking about legality, though, not just what you might get away with.

I imagine the charge would be possession of a firearm that is a registered SBR, that being illegal in said state. What I said I don't know is whether those states based such a charge on the actual configuration of the gun meeting their own definitions, or if they would consider the ATF's registration of such as meeting that definition.

The ATF won't approve a 5320.20 with a destination where that firearm would be illegal

Right. So, if you explain that you are going to put a 20" upper on it before you go, what do they say then?

 

[ny32182]

"Lethal range" is going to be basically any range at which you can make a hit, if not further, which is going to be a lot more than 300 meters for a practiced shooter. I was rather surprised at how flat shooting, and how easy it was to get hits on paper with my 11.5" with a red dot and M855 on my first try at 300 yards.

As far as buffers, I have an H2 in my 10.5 and will probably go to an H2 in my 11.5; those are factory uppers though. If you are cutting down an existing 16" upper it will probably depend on what, if anything, you do to the gas port at the same time.

 

[CleverNickname]

This is exactly what I would like to see some documentation about. IS it legal to do so or not? If it is a registered weapon, it is a registered weapon and my understanding is they want to know where you're going with it.

Also see question #5 in this letter.

 

[Girodin]

Just a FYI for those that might not be aware an agency interpretation like the above is not bind law.

 

[Sam1911]

Awesome CNN! That's exactly what I was looking for. Cool beans.

 

[Sam1911]

If you are smart, you'll get a $1000 per year Title II manufacturer's license, which lets you go anywhere, with anything, basically.

You've mentioned this in a couple of places. However, an SOT2 is not a quick and easy passport to a Title II hobby.

As Bubbles has pointed out:

The application fee for a Type 07 FFL (firearm manufacturer) is $150. The license is valid for three years.
The SOT is $500.00 per year if your total gross receipts are less than $500,000.00 per year, otherwise the tax is $1000.00 per year.
ITAR registration is $2250.00 per year.
Throw in liability insurance, machines and tooling, raw materials, office equipment, computers and software, and other normal costs of doing business (utilities, rent, legal fees, etc) and it gets spendy real fast.

 

[strambo]

The definition of an SBR includes a barrel less than 16" in length. So...it isn't an SBR with a 16" upper, provided there are no short uppers in possession at that time.

The letter basically says that, if it isn't in SBR config (and short upper is not available), it is the same as any 16"+ rifle.

 

[Sam1911]

If you can't make it pay $100k a year, its cause you are not trying. A pitted old WWII tsmg is $12k or more. A semi auto Thompson is 1k, you can convert it in 1/2 day, and sell it for 6k. Not lots of them, but quite a few per year, to people who make money by "renting" them out to shooters. There's easily a dozen other types that make nearly as much for the manufacturer.

Do you do this for a living? Is your type 07 FFL your primary business or do you have a "day job?" What kind of shop set-up do you have? How many (roughly) did you sell last year?

 

[Girodin]

The letter basically says that, if it isn't in SBR config (and short upper is not available), it is the same as any 16"+ rifle.

Those letters are typically interpretive rules. Not a legislative rules. There is a world of difference. Arguably if the an agency tried to bring enforcement against one for having an "SBR" with a 16" or longer barrel and adequate overall length there would be a very good basis to challenge. Such a rule that the registered lower was a SBR despite longer barrel length would need to pass a "Chevron analysis". It includes two questions. First has congress spoken to the specific issue. Here arguably they have. The definition in the statute is rather clear. It reads:

The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

That is pretty clear language and it doesn't seem that there is anything for the agency or a court to interpret. The given lengths are spelled out.

If one found ambiguity in that then the next question would be is the agencies interpretation a permissible one. Here the court is not asking if it is the right one, or the one the court would reach only if it is permissible. Is it in the spectrum of vagueness in the statute? You can imagine arguments for either side. Honestly, I think this would fail at step one.

So I am inclined to say you ought to be able to and that ultimately that position would likely prevail. That said I don't want to be the person that makes it prevail (unless I was the attorney $$$$$$).

 

[Sam1911]

Right, but you understand that there are some restrictions as to what Post Sample MGs a Class 03 can have on hand, right? Having your 03 isn't carte blance to buy an unlimited number of toys.