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Mandatory Safety Training, yes or no?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Jlr2267, Apr 2, 2013.

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  1. Jlr2267

    Jlr2267 Member

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    Until today, I would have said "no" if mandatory. Well, today I watched a guy (new gun owner it appears) who obviously hadn't a clue about gun safety blow off his own finger. Yes, I literally saw the man shoot himself before my own eyes and saw the blood gushing from what remained of his finger as his wife and a couple of by-stander children gasped in horror.

    It took all of about 5 seconds to go from a bad initial decision to a traumatic, and probably lifelong, injury. He shoots one shot, and the gun malfunctions. So he drops the mag without clearing the chamber (mistake #1), grabs the MUZZLE with his left hand (mistake #2), while keeping his finger on the trigger (mistake #3) and proceeds to push on the slide. Next thing you know, BANG! Lucky for him, he had just turned the gun away from pointing directly at his gut when it fired. He appeared to have not even a slight hint that anything he was doing was dangerous...could have just as easily shot another patron.

    Scares the hell out of me to think about the high cost of carelessness and improper training. When that bullet leaves the chamber, its gone and you cannot call it back, no matter what the consequence...it is gone and could take an innocent child's life, or just bury up in the dirt...it is out of your control at that point. We (responsible gun owners) all understand that gun safety is paramount, and that 4 simple rules will prevent the vast majority of accidents, because we are taught that, either by our families or by an instructor. Who is teaching these folks that grow up in gunless homes and decide at the age of 35 to buy their first pistol and head down to the range? These folks "don't know what they don't know" so we can hardly blame them.

    Sorry for the long-winded rant guys (and gals) but this incident today really has me considering the need for a different approach.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2013
  2. Lex Luthier

    Lex Luthier Member

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    What an unfortunate and unnecessary tragedy. Of course, there is that survival of the fittest thing, and perhaps that man should have never set eyes on a bang stick.

    Were you instructing him or just in the right place at the right time?
     
  3. kwguy

    kwguy Member

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    Oh man. That sucks. You would think at that age, understanding the gravity of his purchase, that he would 'educate himself', especially if he's new to firearms.

    Not to segue, but you also see that with motorcycles somewhat often.

    I really hate 'mandatory' anything, but that's a tough one. It's easy to say 'well, another Darwin award' recipient', but you really don't wanna see that happen to anyone, especially when this individual is just joining in this.
     
  4. Jlr2267

    Jlr2267 Member

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    No...happened to be taking a break and watching this guy who'd just walked onto the range.
     
  5. holdencm9

    holdencm9 Member

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    Why didn't you interject after he had pointed it at himself? That's what we call a teachable moment.

    Despite the occasional idiot, I don't think we can legislate common sense. Even well-trained individuals (who are the only ones in the room qualified to handle that Glock!) can have "oops" moments.
     
  6. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    "today I watched a guy"

    For all we know he's had a safety class. Look at all the bad drivers who have passed driver's ed.
     
  7. tomrkba

    tomrkba Member

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    His fault, his consequence. He played fast and loose under "Big Boy Rules"/Darwin/Reality and lost. Tex Grubner learned the same lesson the hard way. Changing the law will do nothing other than invite the police into his life and possible charges. We already have too much government customer service in our lives. Various legislatures are turning this country into a rubber room to gain votes and we're paying the consequences already.

    This is one reason why I do not advocate for mandatory training. Some people do not listen and need to learn through experience, though his experience was a bit rougher than most. I bet he becomes very conscientious about gun safety after this event.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2013
  8. jerkface11

    jerkface11 Member

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    Why would you think that was a good idea anyway? I doubt it takes special training to know the bullets come out that end.
     
  9. newfalguy101

    newfalguy101 Member

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    Lets not forget, In the gun world, Mandatory ANYTHING only really applies to guns purchased/transfered from an FFL............
     
  10. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    Mandatory safety training... No. I encourage folks to take classes on shooting which would include safety training, but I would never support mandatory trainig. I don't particularly care for the fact that shooting is a requirement for a HCP in Tennessee.

    People do stupid stuff. Hopefully they or bystanders don't get hurt.
     
  11. InkEd

    InkEd Member

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    No mandatory training should not be required.

    Firearms come with User Guides and Safety Instructions. If you choose to disregard them then it is your fault. I feel bad for the guy but common sense would tell you to take your finger off the trigger. His missing finger will not really mess him up too much in life (unless he was professional hand model) and serve as reminder to be careful when dealing with potentially dangerous things.

    If you do some serious thinking on the subject, you'll probably realize your initial view (no mandatory training) is correct. IMHO you were probably just shocked (possibly even a little grossed out) by it happening right in front of you.
     
  12. Onward Allusion

    Onward Allusion Member

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    Lots of times, crap like that happens real fast. My first reaction would have been - Er, what the...? A second or two would go by and before you know it - no finger on the poor schmuck.

    As for mandatory training, who decides on what kind of training? Also, is mandatory training required to write your Senator or Representative? Is it required to be informed before a person goes out and votes some idiot into office?

    When I got into firearms way back when, I read up on guns. Yes, I READ the manual and found books on the subject. It might sound funny but growing up in Chicago, there weren't a hell of a lot of people who were really into shooting, even back in the day. It is a personal responsibility to get up to speed on anything that one intends on picking up as a sport, hobby, profession...etc. No legal requirement will save people from having a momentary lapse or just being plain stupid.
     
  13. mrvco

    mrvco Member

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    I would support mandatory gun safety training if it was done at the grade school level. Even if you don't own a gun, you should at least know how to make a gun safe and not be scared of it. I'd say this is a valuable life skill on par with math, reading, etc.
     
  14. JRH6856

    JRH6856 Member

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    What was it 1911Tuner said? “If you're stupid, life can be a lot harder. It can also be a lot shorter.” Or something like that.

    If Sex Ed in public schools is mandatory, then so should be firearms education. They are both safety training for the safe exercise of a fundamental right.
     
  15. silicosys4

    silicosys4 Member

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    People fall off ladders, should we have mandatory ladder safety training?
    While it was an unfortunate and tragic accident that no doubt was very traumatic, and im sorry he had to learn a very hard lesson, he was an adult and was capable of taking safety and handling training on a voluntary basis, and free to do so at any time. He was responsible for his own safety, as are we all. It comes down to policing yourself, or thinking that others should have that responsibility. Unfortunately, mandatory means imposing your thoughts on the matter upon others. I can't agree with that when you have options to increase your safety in the matter that don't impose on others, such as finding a private range or club that has a diligent RO.

    Taking safety classes is a very good idea and should be encouraged at every opportunity, made universally and easily available, and free IMO....but not mandatory.

    The fact that his gun could very easily have been pointed in a direction that would have meant the bullet hitting another person after blowing off his finger would be pretty disturbing to me. I don't like public ranges for that reason, and would be looking for a more private area, or a club that does require safety training for its members if you have that option.

    I'm sorry you had that experience, traumatic experiences like that will stay with you forever, but you'll be safer for it. Fortunately, there was not a second person hurt, and it wasn't a debilitating injury
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2013
  16. Jlr2267

    Jlr2267 Member

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    It all happened in just a few seconds
     
  17. JohnsXDM

    JohnsXDM Member

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    I got my mandatory training back in 1965, when I turned 12 and dad bought me my first .22, a Remington Nylon 66. Dad was a tough old school type. I'm sure I did not enjoy the "training" but it must have stuck cause the only things I've ever shot were things I was aiming at!
     
  18. Lightshot

    Lightshot Member

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    I would not be against some sort of mandatory information presented to gun buyers, at the time of purchase. Something along the lines of the four rules, how to make the gun safe, and how to properly install a gun lock. A little information can go a long way, especially for people who may not want to admit what they do not know.

    Most people on here take the basics for granted but they are not so intuitive to all people. Just the other day I watched a new gun owner try to install a cable trigger lock behind the trigger rather than through the action, with a round left in the chamber. Thank god it was just a teachable moment, but a minute of instruction before he had left the store could have prevented that dangerous situation.
     
  19. Tim the student

    Tim the student Member

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  20. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    I was watching Kindergarten Cop the other day and the kids were taught not to talk to stranges. A stranger enters..... Stranger! Stranger! Stranger! That is about the extent of firearms training in schools.... Gun! Don't touch!
     
  21. Jlr2267

    Jlr2267 Member

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    Yes, I guess that's the part that really bothers me. He lost his finger so we can shrug it off as a learning experience and give a Darwin Award. But what about the next one...maybe an innocent by-stander gets a permanent headache...can we, as responsible gun owners, offer no solutions to this growing problem, and live with that? I think we have to come to grips with the reality that we, as a community, need to offer real solutions before other solutions are imposed on us.
     
  22. kwguy

    kwguy Member

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    It really is a personal responsibility issue. If everyone took more responsibility for things in their lives, then less involvement would be 'needed' (probably the wrong word) by the gov't.

    It not only applies to firearms, but to many other aspects of our lives as well.

    Having the gov't do anything often does not make it more efficient or better in any way, and often times, makes it counterproductive and more difficult.
     
  23. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    I'm personally of mixed thoughts on the issue.

    On principle, I'm a fan of constitutional carry like we have here in Alaska.

    More practically, I prefer the concept of those states where a concealed carry permit requires completion of some minimal standard of training that you can accomplish in a weekend or whatever. I see a coherent logic in the idea that on your private property you should be able to have and carry pretty much whatever you want, but if you want to carry in a place where other members of the public are at risk for your potential incompetence you should meet some minimum standards.

    In other words, the drivers license model.

    The downside to this is cost and a related inherent bias against poorer people. I don't know what the concealed carry classes run elsewhere, but here in AK a concealed carry course runs about $200-250. (Even though we don't have any CCW requirement for carry in state, we still have a permitting process in place for those who want one for travel and reciprocity.) For someone with a limited income, that could be pretty painful. In addition, at least up here, it's not like you can jump right in to a class this next weekend or whatever -- I don't know how this compares to places like TX and Utah -- but again, our permits are not exactly high demand items since they're not necessary.

    But maybe my thoughts on training requirements are partly fed by work in law enforcement, which tends to expose me to not just the criminal minded chunk of society but also the just plain stupid chunk of society on an excessive basis. Without any mandatory training requirements up here, and with one of the highest densities of firearms per capita on the planet we just don't have a lot of issues with ADs in public places and such. I don't think statistically we're off the charts with accidental shootings, and our homicide/felony assault rates are pretty unremarkable, so by and large people who are carrying aren't doing the wrong thing or the dumb thing with weapons. (And the ones who do the wrong thing would presumably be no more deterred by a reinstatement of our permit system than they are in Chicago, etc.)
     
  24. kwguy

    kwguy Member

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    Kinda what I'm thinking about. We can fix our own problems much more efficiently. Take the issue of school security. No matter where you stand on 'armed people in schools', as soon as the last tragedy was committed, the NRA had a solution relatively quickly. The gov't is still working on nonsense bans and things that don't work. And they're not even very efficient about it.

    There is a saying, kind of paraphrasing here: 'don't ask for help that you really don't want'. Sometimes, not being proactive about a problem is like asking the gov't for 'help' that we really don't want.
     
  25. gym

    gym member

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    I agree, they really need to keep pace with so many people getting permits who are not, "gun savvy" at all. saw this coming and have mentioned it as many here have. I only go to my local range during the week "normally" and stay 15 minutes to a half hour. Most folks are indeed rank armatures.
    I had a new M&P choke on some federal" ammo after firing another brand perfectly last week. I tap racked and it would not clear, but that gun stayed pointed downtown, while I popped the mag out , "the slide had to be manipulated to clear the double feed, but it was no problem as long as you know not to release the slide until you get second bullet out of the way, and clear the one in the pipe without slapping the slide up against the round "stuck between the feed ramp and the magazine". I can see how not understanding the mechanics could easily cause a death or injury.
    These common day occurrences are not engrained in newbies, they will wrestle with the gun with the hope of "fixing the problem", It's like flying a flight simulator and getting into a real plane, you don't get a do over. Some sort of training involving the mechanics of how the slide magazine and firing pin work in conjunction to create the explosion that launches the projectile should be mandatory, it is also a bad thing for a new gun owner to sustain a life changing wound over something as simple as this. Perhaps they should have to spend a few hours with a certified instructor
    who can show then how a gun works.
    I just put one out for the night, in a bedside holster, as I did for 40 years, and almost did it in the dark so as not to wake my wife, until I realized a shot going off might be more disturbing, so I turned on the lights.
    I try not to take things for granted, like putting everything back even little things, after I use them
     
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