Marlin 1894 accuracy woes

[GooseGestapo]

I know this is an old thread but I re read it.YOUR PROBLEMS JUMPED OUT AT ME,!!

Its the Lee factory crimp die!!!!!!


Don't ever use the Lee factory crimp die to crimp LEAD BULLETS.
The Lee FCDfor the .44Mag has a carbide ring that squeezes down the case to ensure that the rounds chamber. In doing such with a Lead bullet, you are further sizing down your bullets inside the brass case causing them to be badly undersized. Hence keyholing!!!.

Crimp with the seating die, and then, don't over do it. Just enough roll into the crimp groove to prevent it from being pushed deeper into the case in the magazine. Unlike a revolver! You don't have to be concerned with recoil pulling the bullets out binding the cylinder.

 

[dranrab]

That level of accuracy and the problems you describe are unacceptable. Your 1894 should give you 2 inch groups at 100 yards. Mine gives me consistent 2-3 inch groups no matter what I throw at it. It sounds like you got one of the early Remington made Marlins that are known for having issues.

 

[0to60]

That level of accuracy and the problems you describe are unacceptable. Your 1894 should give you 2 inch groups at 100 yards. Mine gives me consistent 2-3 inch groups no matter what I throw at it. It sounds like you got one of the early Remington made Marlins that are known for having issues.

Agreed. Note Remington's group on the target they sent me. Its 2.5" from 50 yards. I don't see how they can feel that's acceptable.

According to Remington, my 1894 is a 2014 model.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

I know this is an old thread but I re read it.YOUR PROBLEMS JUMPED OUT AT ME,!!

Its the Lee factory crimp die!!!!!!


Don't ever use the Lee factory crimp die to crimp LEAD BULLETS.
The Lee FCDfor the .44Mag has a carbide ring that squeezes down the case to ensure that the rounds chamber. In doing such with a Lead bullet, you are further sizing down your bullets inside the brass case causing them to be badly undersized. Hence keyholing!!!.

Crimp with the seating die, and then, don't over do it. Just enough roll into the crimp groove to prevent it from being pushed deeper into the case in the magazine. Unlike a revolver! You don't have to be concerned with recoil pulling the bullets out binding the cylinder.

That's doggone interesting. Shearing the outer circumference off of the projectile?



Todd.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Not "shearing", squeezing!!!
If you doubt my diagnosis, try over at either www.marlinowners.com or castboolits. They won't be so tolerant of your "sneering", however.
My how this site has deteriorated! I stand amazed at the growing ignorance of it's clientele.
Yes, I have, and use a Lee FCD, but not for it's originally designed purpose.

 

[WelshShooter]

I would second the crimp die. Whenever I had a good load with my 1894 .357mag and attempted to crimp using the Lee FCD instead of taper crimp with seating die, it caused my groups to open up. Not quite to the extent of the OP's images but enough for me to toss that FCD straight into the bin...

 

[Hookeye]

I got an 1894 back in 2008.
Trigger sucked but smoothed up after working it for a couple of evenings.
2" groups mine shot, at 100 yards.
Only tried the Hornady 240 gr factory ammo.
Scope mag was maxd at 5X.

 

[Schwing]

Not "shearing", squeezing!!!
If you doubt my diagnosis, try over at either www.marlinowners.com or castboolits. They won't be so tolerant of your "sneering", however.
My how this site has deteriorated! I stand amazed at the growing ignorance of it's clientele.
Yes, I have, and use a Lee FCD, but not for it's originally designed purpose.

I bought a couple of the FCDs a couple of years ago and have had this issue in .357. It squishes them down about .002.

On my Marlin 1894, however, I did not use the FCD and still had these crappy groups regardless of bullet diameter or charge using lead. It was very frustrating.

 

[0to60]

Ok, I ordered me a Redding profile crimp die (roll crimp, no sizing like the Lee die) and I found a bullet mfg (https://www.dardascastbullets.com) that offers lots of different sizing options.

When these things arrive, I'll make myself some .432's and .433's with the Redding and holler back at ya'll.

 

[Jlr2267]

takes about 3 seconds to knock the sizing ring out of the FCD and then it works great with lead, jacketed, whatever

 

[R.W.Dale]

The FCD may be a factor but it's not a cure all like you guys are making it out to be.

I've not used one myself and like I said between two rifles 2.5-3" 50yard groups were the GOOD groupings.

These rifles are just fundamentally inaccurate

 

[Jlr2267]

The FCD may be a factor but it's not a cure all like you guys are making it out to be.

I've not used one myself and like I said between two rifles 2.5-3" 50yard groups were the GOOD groupings.

These rifles are just fundamentally inaccurate

If they were fundamentally inaccurate, mine would be...it's not. You just have to find the right combination if using lead bullets, not unlike many other firearms. I've owned several and all were respectable shooters, but the 44's were "finicky".

 

[R.W.Dale]

If they were fundamentally inaccurate, mine would be...it's not. You just have to find the right combination if using lead bullets, not unlike many other firearms. I've owned several and all were respectable shooters, but the 44's were "finicky".

If My rifle won't shoot my cast bullets it's on me

When it makes shotgun patterns with jacketed too its just inaccurate.

Forcing one to shoot with custom molds and sizers is just a band aid.

For whatever reason I can buy a 336 in any caliber I want and it will shoot great with minimal load development

 

[Jlr2267]

If My rifle won't shoot my cast bullets it's on me

When it makes shotgun patterns with jacketed too its just inaccurate.

Forcing one to shoot with custom molds and sizers is just a band aid

If it won't shoot jacketed, there is definitely a problem with it. I would call that a quality problem rather than a fundamental inaccuracy. All mine have shot very well with jacketed. The problems with lead in these rifles, IME, are

1) most off-the-shelf cast bullets are made for revolvers and are too small for rifles which generally need .431 minimum

2) the extra velocity in rifles can cause lead bullets to disengage the rifling

I'm not saying Marlin hasn't built some clunkers, but they use the same rifling as all other 44 rifles as far as I know...they are no more or less inherently accurate.

 

[R.W.Dale]

But my experience isn't just limited to 44

I had a 357 that fundamentally didn't shoot any better. Somewhere I have some load development targets still. I will see if I can find em.

 

[RRBunn]

I have had three 1894s in .44 Mag. Two were my dad's one was from 1971 another from 1994 and the third was from 1978. All HATE all 180gr. loads, but I have tried 240gr hard cast that were made for the 44-40 and the all of them shot very well with that bullet and H110. I now use a hard cast (Better Bullets) 240gr. and they also shoot well but I think they are .429, but H-110 seems to work well. I also found that my 1894 in . 357 magnum can be fussy on bullets and loads. .357 158gr XTPs with H110 work well, 30 Spl same bullet and Unique do NOT. Still trying to find a .38 spl load for that rifle.
Hope this helps.

Rick

 

[Hookeye]

Has the rifle in question been shot with factory ammo
(240gr jacketed full power loads)?

Heard many a good report on an 1894. One was indeed bad, and sent to factory, and came back fixed.

2.5" group at 50 yards, if iron sighted and simply bagged........might indeed be acceptable. The test person might have been checking function as well as accuracy and whatever the load used..............standardized.

Maybe most guns shoot at that level.

Messing with other ammo/reloading might shrink the groups.

 

[0to60]

Has the rifle in question been shot with factory ammo
(240gr jacketed full power loads)?

In post #23 I attached a pic of both remington's proof target and a group I shot from a rest at 35 yards with factory 240 JHPs. My group is ~3" at that distance.

2.5" group at 50 yards, if iron sighted and simply bagged........might indeed be acceptable. The test person might have been checking function as well as accuracy and whatever the load used..............standardized.

Maybe most guns shoot at that level.

I can shoot better groups with my Walther PPK than my Marlin. There is no way this is normal.

 

[Jlr2267]

In post #23 I attached a pic of both remington's proof target and a group I shot from a rest at 35 yards with factory 240 JHPs. My group is ~3" at that distance.



I can shoot better groups with my Walther PPK than my Marlin. There is no way this is normal.

are you saying you shoot sub 3" groups at 35 yds with a PPK?

 

[joem1945]

I have a 94C in .38 spl /.357 mag. Accuracy is poor unless you load to the max +P the .357 mag.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Not "shearing", squeezing!!!
If you doubt my diagnosis, try over at either www.marlinowners.com or castboolits. They won't be so tolerant of your "sneering", however.
My how this site has deteriorated! I stand amazed at the growing ignorance of it's clientele.
Yes, I have, and use a Lee FCD, but not for it's originally designed purpose.

Geeze... relax!

An 11 word question... a sincere question about the effect of the rim of the case upon the projectile and you go high and to the right about "Sneering" and the general decline of the board?

Mostly, I was curious as to the effect of the remaining portion of the projectile were it sheared from the circumference.

Try a bit less coffee before freaking out and implying animosity or getting upset in the case that someone does in fact dare "doubt" an opinion.


Todd.

 

[ThomasT]

Now For Something Different

You have got good advice on your loads and dies. I have a marlin 357 and a 44 mag. The 357 shoots small groups just like it came from marlin. The 44 mag was a 5-6 grouper at 100 yards from the start. And it didn't matter what loads I tried.

I took my forearm off and found it to be a very tight fit. I sanded enough wood off the back so when it was assembled I could feel just a tiny amount of movement. I also sanded a little out of the barrel channel. Next I glass bedded the barrel channel and the back of the forearm so it fits but with no pressure. My gun now shoots 2.5-3" groups at 100 yards.

Also make sure the front band isn't super tight. Mine is even a little loose. The 44 barrel is thin and will heat up after a few shots and cause the POI to change.

We did this on my buddies gun ans his forearm was so tight from the factory that marlin had cross threaded the hanger for the forend cap. He had to buy a new one along with the screws. His rifle now shoots the same as mine.

At between 50-75 yards my gun will shoot groups with the bullet holes touching. I have to use a scope to do that now. I have a catarac on my right eye I am having removed after the first of the year so open sights don't work for me right now.

My 357 shot excellent groups right from the start. It will shoot 1" groups at 40 yards with round ball loads.

I also made a tool to go in the action and made a radius on the back of the barrel similar to chamfering the charge holes on a revolver. I have no hang ups with SWC bullets with my guns. And seat a wadcutter about 1/8" out of a 38 case and my 357 feeds those just fine also.

I don't know why marlin left such a sharp edge on the rear of the barrels

 

[ThomasT]

One other thing. Try a box of winchester white box 240gr soft points. That stuff shoots good in every 44 mag we have tried it in. My buddies son gets 1.5" groups with his rifle and a Nikon Pro-staff 4x power scope. I sold him that rifle and regret it now.

That was an older one with the micro groove. I sold it so I could buy a ballard rifled gun and shoot lead bullets and I cannot remember even trying a lead bullet in my new gun.:banghead:

 

[loose noose]

Quite a few years ago I bought a Marlin .44 Magnum with the Micro-groove barrel, and had the same problems as Otto 60. I tried every trick in the book, and could not get that rifle to shoot adequately. Ended up selling it after using just about every bullet combination as well as powder combinations available at the time. Note this is back when Marlin still owned the company. I purchased a 45-70 in the Marlin with the Ballard rifling and never had a problem with the accuracy of the round be it lead cast or jacketed. 1" groups with a 3 shot group at 100 yards. I also bought a Marlin Cowboy in .45LC with the Ballard rifling and again not a problem with accuracy or the type of bullet or powder. Note I did remove that ugly safety, and replaced it with a Clyde Ludwig screw, in both rifles which I still own.

 

[Dr T]

My 1894 with microgroove barrel does not like cast bullets one little bit. It does like jacketed bullets. I accept this, figuring that the microgroove do not grip the bullets well enough to get them spinning.

I don't like de-leading barrels anyway. It is a lot of work.