Martial artists - need advice...

[possenti]

My 11 year-old daughter and I just visited a Tae Kwon Do school in our area. The school also offers a (CQC) Close-Quarter Combat class for adults that I'm interested in. I read the literature and visited the website for this particular course (I don't refer to it as a "style" since I don't think qualifies as a traditional art). Here's the web address:

http://www.hockscqc.com/

I've never heard of W. Hock Hochheim, but it looks like he's put together an effective system. Here's an exerpt from his site:

I saw it all coming together into the true essence of combat. I came to understand the only reason I learned and taught fighting systems was to defeat two targets, the enemy soldier and the criminal, not to pass on grandmaster dynasties, become a trophy/sport champion or to preserve art for the sake of tradition.

There are two ways to defeat the enemy, less-than-lethal means and lethal means. In short-sometimes we take them prisoner and sometimes we have to kill them. A competent warrior can do both as legally, morally and ethically needed in a proper use-of-force continuum. If you want to defeat the enemy soldier or the criminal, this is the system for you.

No one system, such as karate for one, or no one discipline, such as military science, holds the answers to ever scenario. I began to forge a course that bridges the gap between the police, the military, the martial artists and the aware citizenry. To structure it as realistically as possible, I used a “reverse-engineering†approach by starting with the fight first and working backward in probabilities.

After almost 30 years of real world, hand-on experience and training, in the Year 2000, I began to organize all my fighting tactics and strategies into one comprehensive program called the Close Quarter Combatives Group. The CQCG is made up of four primary foundations, each a 10 level training program:

-Unarmed Combatives Course
-Knife/Counter-Knife Course
-SDMS Impact Weapon Course
-Gun/Counter-Gun Course

This doesn't seem like one of those corny courses advertised in some gun rags promising to teach the "ultimate death-touch" or making you a "super warrior in 3 easy lessons." Looks like a pretty solid course that encompasses real-world survival. I've studied TKD, Jeet Kune Do, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in the past, and this seems like a pretty complete course.

I think I'll give it a try unless someone here can convince me otherwise...

 

[Jim March]

I know nothing about the class.

But I do know one evaluation I'd make: I'd want the teacher to demo what he'd do against a guy doing a straight-line knife thrust, with the teacher unarmed.

If at least SOME of what he does involves getting the hell out of the way, then there's some decent combative system from Southeast Asia or old-school Japanese art in the system's DNA. This "dodge" will have at least some sideways element; it might be pure sideways, or fading back and sideways in the initial reaction, or even ADVANCING and sideways (higher skill levels involved).

This is a good thing. Incoming steel has the right of way. If you ain't there during the thrust but blow the counter (whatever it is), hey, you still get to try something else or dodge again. Movement is GOOD. You'll spot it the easiest in his reaction to a knife attack but it'll be present in counters to clubs/staffs too, don't worry about that.

Now, WHAT the "counter" is varies. Filipino systems like to "defang the snake", going after the knife-hand and doing a fold/spindle/mutilate number. Japanese origin (ancestral stuff behind "de-tuned" modern Judo/Aikkido/etc) will try and toss the guy off-balance. USUALLY. There's lots of crossovers. I ain't advanced enough to say which is better except that both of these functional answers have a strong "get the hell out the way" element right at the beginning of the reaction to live steel.

When you see that "initial dodge" and hand (or weapons) work combined with footwork, you're looking at something with potential.

What you don't want to see is fixed foot positions and/or forearm blocks . Either is very bad. So is "straight back" movement...the goblin can advance faster than you can run backwards. Too many Chinese systems will do a lot of straight back retreat while slapping at the knife hand/wrist...looks all "cool" and "flowing", will get you killed in a hurry on the street. Sideways movement screws with his targeting. It's VERY similar to Farnham's "sideways and backwards continuous movement out of the kill zone while firing and heading to cover" in the initial instants of a handgun fight, and for the same reason.

 

[mercedesrules]

Oriental martial arts usually have a spiritual side that I enjoy. In fact, the more self-defense skills a person has, the more need there is to also have a peaceful, just side to temper his use of the art. Young boys, in particular, need this training as they are born selfish and violent.

The legendary masters of martial arts always used the very least amount of force necessary to stop any aggressions. That quality is as useful in today's litigious atmosphere as it was hundreds of years ago.

The famous swordsman, Miyamoto Mushashi, is said to have avoided fights whenever possible and also to have used only his wooden practice sword on lesser challengers so as not to hurt them and to make a point of their rashness.

MR

 

[Average Guy]

I've never heard of W. Hock Hochheim

You WHAT!? Why, he's the guy...that...uh...

Well, I've heard of him. Actually, IIRC, I have one of his books (one of the Training Missions) on my Amazon.com wish list. I read some of his philosophy and thought it sounded very practical and real-world. I would jump at the chance to train with someone like that.

Full Amazon listing here.

 

[dave3006]

Unless you have years of training, a weekend seminar will do little good. You won't be able to retain and use the introductory drills you are taught.

It takes time and repetition to learn skills that you will need in a crisis.

 

[strambo]

Unless you have years of training, a weekend seminar will do little good.

I respectfully dissaggree. Everyone has to start somewhere. There is no reason why a person couldn't practice the skills introduced at the seminar on their own on a continuing basis. That's exactly what most people should do with firearms training...go to a seminar (2-3 day course) then come home and practice. Nobody goes to Gunsite twice a week for years. Furthermore, years of training is no good if you're training the wrong things and don't know any better until years later. Worst case scenario, the seminar turns out to be not that good and you have only wasted 2 days. Start a MA class and at the rate they spoon feed info it can take months to years to see/learn enough of the system to know if it is any good (when you are a beginner.)

I have certainly heard of Hockheim, no experience with it, but his attitude and background look solid. I would check it out, if I was in your situation.

 

[Don Gwinn]

It will depend on the instructor, but if it's Hock or a good instructor it will be well worth your time, especially if you're sitting there with no training right now. I took an introductory class (yup, one of those seminars ) from pretty uninspiring instructor in the same system, and I still learned a lot and came away with a lot of things I could do on my own to make some progress. It didn't turn me into a knifefighter, but it gave me some things to practice.

No, it's not a substitute for studying Kali five days a week for a few years, but what is? If you have access to a seminar, don't let naysayers convince you it's not worth doing. It cannot possibly be worse than sitting on the couch!

Hockheim calls his group the "Scientific Fighting Congress" and basically they take western "combatives" like what you'd find in an old Fairbairn or Styer book and attempt to update them for the present day. He's big on using feedback from students who have real experience (mostly cops and prison personnel) to tweak things.

You will be taught to move off the line of attack and to control the weapon. The way my instructor taught it was:
This is what you want to do (step off line, simultaneously capture knife arm at the wrist, preferably with both hands on top of his wrist, continue to step out and past him as you pull the arm up, continue to "run past him" and as you reach the limit of his arm's range of motion it will help you turn and bring the arm down. At this point, of course, the arm is torqued and you should be able to force him down with the continued motion and either restrain him or stomp him.
That seemed awfully complex to me, but I suppose you do need to control the knife, and once you do, you can't very well stand there to see what he does next. Gotta do something. It did seem like once you made that first step to the outside and got your hands firmly on his wrist, you basically had him, but getting to that point is not easy.

I liked it better than the second choice: First thing I asked was what to do if I missed his arm, since that seemed very likely to me. In that case, he said, you still want to strike that knife arm if you can and get to the outside, so the footwork is similar. The difference is that since you don't have control of the knife, you don't want to stay in range, so as you pass him you simply run past in an attempt to escape or at least get to a dominant position behind him from which you can deliver techniques in relative safety compared to the the front. At most, you would give him a shove as you go past. A low, stomping kick would be more powerful, but I found I HAD to stop for a moment to do it and it wasn't worth it. I didn't like that option, but I don't know what to suggest. Essentially, fighting against a knife sucks. It's even worse unarmed, but it's not great with a knife of your own. Yuck.

Anyway, I think it's a solid system in the areas I tried, but as I said, the instructor will make a big difference. Mine was almost two hours late and didn't seem like he was going to let us do any sparring beyond one-steps at about 10% speed. With only two students and six training knives, I thought that was a little silly. Even so, I know a lot more now than I did before, even though I don't know a lot now, if you take my meaning.

 

[moorerwc]

I am biased via experience

I have experience in Japanese grappling arts (Judo, Aikido, Jujitsu, and a bit of bujinkan taijitsu) as well as experience in working security, i.e. fighting crackheads. If you want your daughter to have practical self-defense skills, run away from TKD and "karate." I am 6' and over 200 lbs. and do not trust my strength to be an effective striker/kicker. I suggest anyone interested in hand-to-hand SD learn a grappling art with at least some ground techniques (perhaps more ground techniques for women b/c of the types of attacks they typically face). Don't believe the claims of Brazilian jujutsu that so much % of fights go to the ground and thus you only have to learn ground fighting--most BJJ techniques will be covered in a good judo school. Learn how to throw an opponent, use aggressors anatomy against them (joint locks, etc.), stay on your feet to deal with BG's friends, use their aggression against them, and how to win on the ground when absolutely necessary. A good judo sensei who also knows the combat derivations (jujitsu) of competition techniques is darn near ideal. Competition judo techniques allow one to practice at full speed in relative safety while being easily converted to their forbears for the real deal. Good idea to train with many different body types--ex. women should train with larger men so they can learn how their lower center of gravity, wider hips, and suppleness can be used against size and strength.

Don't expect a short course to take the place of long term practice. The best you can learn from one is situational awareness and determination to not give up--a few tricks and knowledge of improvised weapons would also be good starting points.

-Chad

 

[Moondancer]

Hochheim

I have taken the "weekend seminar" from Hock himself. It was about six years ago, "Knife Combatives" or some such title.

Now, just for background, at that time I'd had 20+ years MA training. TKD primarily, but some Aikido, some Ueichi-Ryu, some Okinawan weaponry, and a wee bit of Shorin-Ryu. Without SOME MA background, I would probably have been lost, but it certainly wasn't necessary to have had years of training to pick up some useful stuff.

I would recommend anything that Hock had a hand in.

 

[Moondancer]

Hochheim

I have taken the "weekend seminar" from Hock himself. It was about six years ago, "Knife Combatives" or some such title.

Now, just for background, at that time I'd had 20+ years MA training. TKD primarily, but some Aikido, some Ueichi-Ryu, some Okinawan weaponry, and a wee bit of Shorin-Ryu. Without SOME MA background, I would probably have been lost, but it certainly wasn't necessary to have had years of training to pick up some useful stuff.

I would recommend anything that Hock had a hand in.

 

[Arc Angel]

‘My 11 year-old daughter and I just visited a Tae Kwon Do school in our area.’

This kind ‘a says it all – doesn’t it! In the past I’ve worked with young children who wanted to learn how to defend themselves. Some of these kids had, ‘what it takes’ to become effective fighters; but, most did not. In my experience, you never really know whom you’re working with until you’ve had a youngster in the dojo for, at least, two or three sessions.

If a child: shows, ‘Spirit’, will accept a hit or getting knocked down without giving up or turning, 'shy' on you, and is, also, willing to practice, then, you may have a student who is able to learn how to fight. (Just remember that we are talking about learning, ‘how to fight’, not sparing and, certainly, not gymnastics - understand?)

A young lady is, always, going to have significant physical problems to overcome when attempting to deal with larger, stronger males. I don’t fight, and I don’t teach, anymore; but, if I were tasked with teaching a young female how to effectively defend herself, today, I would want to begin a specialize training regimen with the young lady. It is paramount for any woman to understand how to AVOID a physical assault! This is a broad topic, (Yes, I know; please excuse the pun.) and includes everything from: Avoiding dangerous places, high risk encounters, and moving about at odd times, to becoming proficient in the use of expedient hand-held weapons, and learning how to smoothly clear your vertical body centerline from the dangerous motions of attack.

Females are special; (I, just, did it again – didn’t I!) women, usually, have the disadvantages of smaller, lighter frames and bone structure; however, these combat negatives are, frequently, offset by what is better coordination and greater speed than many men possess. I am positive that most women (and older fighters, in general) should NEVER attempt to block a wrist in any kind of fight. Only a strong man in good physical condition has the ability to successfully grasp a wrist in combat; and, if the grasp isn’t done correctly, then, you are certainly going to damage your thumbs, lose your grasp at precisely the wrong time, or maybe even get cut.

If I had to teach, either, a young girl or an elderly person how to effectively defend against a physical attack, today, I would advise the following tactics:

1. Don’t allow the attacker to close with you. If you are rushed, stay away from walls and learn to step to one side or the other in order to avoid being, either, struck or grasped. (I’ve, occasionally, witnessed a smaller uki (victim) duck very low and, either, dive or roll under a rushing attacker’s knees. I’ve, even, had this stunt pulled on me, once or twice; and I can tell you from experience that you’re never, quite, ready for it – this will work, at least, once!) The important point to remember is to avoid letting any attacker easily close and grapple with you.

2. Never (And I do mean – never.) attempt to block a knife thrust. Step back to the limit of the attacker’s reach; then, with the pinky side of your hand and/or forearm, sweep the attacker’s entire arm away from you. (It doesn’t matter whether it’s an upward or a downward sweep; just remember to start from an oblique angle, stay away from the knife, itself, and complete the sweep quickly; or, you WILL get cut on the back-thrust.)

3. Realistically, at some point in the fight, the smaller contestant is going to get grabbed by the larger one. (Unless a weapon has been brought into play, grappling is, well, inevitable!) A young woman is going to have to know something about the human anatomy, as well as where the body is most easily attacked, and most susceptible to damage. I’m not willing to post this sort of information on a public forum; but women, especially, need to know: How, where, and with what to ward off an aggressor. (You’re welcome to identify yourself and e-mail me if you want the particulars. I’m not saying I’ll give out this information; but I will consider it and make the decision, later.)

For the record, after many years of Kodokan Judo, and Okinawan Gung-Fu, I fell, ‘in love’ with Tai Chi Chuan. I honestly believe that if a young girl were to start out with Tai Chi, she would enjoy the benefits of improved personal health, as well as a certain physical coordination that lends itself very well to the subsequent acquisition of physical skill in any number of different, ‘hard arts’.

Failing this, or if time is of the essence, my quick suggestion for the rapid acquisition of hand-to-hand combat skill would be to study a discipline like, ‘Krav Maga’. I wish you and your young daughter well. May she live a long, safe life!

Here’s a couple of links:

http://itcca.org/English.htm

http://www.kravmaga.com/Home/home.html

 

[Don Gwinn]

MooreRWC, I mentioned signing my kids up for TKD lessons on www.bullshido.com and was asked why not judo or BJJ instead. Judo is not offered in my area, but BJJ now is, and it was a good discussion. I stuck with TKD for reasons that don't really come into this thread (much more to do with the school and instructor in question, plus my kids' needs, than with the art itself.)

However, another practitioner with Judo and Muay Thai experience chimed in to recommend against Judo for kids. His reasoning is that Judo makes severe joint injuries, especially to the knees, almost inevitable and is therefore a poor art for children to learn during their developing years even though its effectiveness is attractive.

I wasn't sure what to make of that. Injuries are a part of any vigorous sport, of course, and taking TKD is not going to keep them from suffering knee injuries by any means. What's your take on this?

 

[Edmond]

I know some of the systems that use joint locks won't allow children to enroll in the classes. I think it's due to the fact that a child may not be able to grasp the threshold of pain?

I've been in Hapkido for years and dabbled in other systems on occassion.

The biggest thing in self defense, IMO, is attitude. If you make up your mind that you will not be a victim, the advantage swings from bad guy to good guy.

Draw attention to yourself, yell for help, yell rape, yell fire and run like hell. I'm not a wimp, but my first inclination would be to remove myself from the situation before I fight.

 

[Arc Angel]

I wasn't sure what to make of that. Injuries are a part of any vigorous sport, of course, and taking TKD is not going to keep them from suffering knee injuries by any means. What's your take on this?

In the more than 10 years that I studied and practiced Kodokan Judo, I'd have to say that I saw more than a reasonable share of joint injuries and broken bones. Dislocated knees were very common; the first time I watched an instructor, 'pop' a knee back in place I got sick to my stomach. Elbows and fingers are, also, at greater than average risk. It, really, doesn’t matter how many hard-fought contests you’ve won; nor does it matter how well you, usually, fight. If you practice any of the, ‘hard arts’ long enough you’re going to experience mistakes and, just plain, bad luck – too! The best that you can hope for is that the consequences of these unhappy events don’t stay with you for the rest of your life.

Frankly I don’t think it’s, all that, fair to impose a mature sense of fatalism (Pain goes with the game, etc., etc.) on a young child. Over the years I had a collarbone broken when I ingenuously (I knew, someday, I'd find a use for this word!) deferred to a younger, less skilled student and allowed myself to be thrown in what, suddenly, turned out to be a poorly executed, uncontrollable throw – the kind none of us were, ever, supposed to attempt. So much for Marquis de Queensbury rules of conduct! This happened to me more than 30 years ago; and, to this day, it continues to mark the last time I deferred to anyone during a physical contest. Another time I hastily blocked a hard thrust with the inside of my right hand and had my thumb severely dislocated. I, still, blame myself for that breech of proper form.

In an earlier post I recommended Tai Chi Chuan for a young student – followed up by subsequent training in one of the, ‘hard arts’ at some later date in time. In my day I’ve seen a lot of young people hurt in the dojo; I’ll stand by my earlier remarks.

 

[moorerwc]

it comes down to

what you want to get out of martial arts. How much "self-defense" is your daughter really interested in? She will get much more sport/atheletic development from TKD, and she might find it more fun--completely valid reasons for pursuing a sport. She also won't run the risk of cauliflower ears--which would be a major concern for a girl at her age--though they do take several hard fought years to develop and I haven't had any such problems myself.

I think injuries are a given in any sport. I definitely didn't mean to imply that you entrust your kids to an instructor who doesn't know how to tailor a program to children--true in any sport. I have been sidelined from training by repeated light injuries to my rotator cuffs (nothing requiring surgery, yet) which I think came from me being stupid in Aikido--but I will say I have seen fewer injuries in MA than in soccer, football, or baseball.
A side benefit for me has been training in break falls which not only taught me humility (you learn to fall safely first because you will be doing a lot of falling) but also has saved me from serious injury on multiple occasions--once while going headfirst over the handlebars of a mountain bike.

So I do recommend a art that teaches a form of break falling for anybody esp. active children. If you want some self-defense ability along with the sport see if there is any grappling/ground fighting taught in the art. There are some schools teaching arts traditionally thought of as punching/kicking and including elements of grappling--I know some Chinese systems do this.

So, no, I don't think MA are really any more injury intensive than other sports--as long as you have a good instructor. First and foremost, your daughter should have fun. Let her decide for herself how much realistic Self defense she wants to learn either now or later.

I think my main reason for first posting was a reaction to having seen many people hoodwinked into thinking that a TKD belt-mill was practical self-defense. Know that going in and have fun with whatever you decide.

-Chad

 

[Luckyorwhat]

New here. great stuff all thanks. One small point is that having read Miyamoto Mushashi's "Book of Five Rings" I don't think he as a gentle man, or a gentleman. The stick he used, iirc, was an oar that he cracked some guy's head open with (the guy was using a real sword), in a pre-arranged duel that he had to row to an island for. He seldom bathed after one close ambush in a bath house, and he even killed a 14 year old boy in full armour fighting for his family's honour.

As for martial arts, I've visited a couple of my friend's places but I never liked the atmospheres, because I was spoiled where I went.

First off, it was a great teacher, he was fun and funny and knowledgeable, and he cared about the kids far more than money - any payment plan could be arranged, and he never took advantage of people by selling over-priced uniforms or doo-dads - or forcing you to buy them. He had a catologue and you didn't pay marked up prices - you did need a uniform, but there were different ones you could choose from.

Secondly, as a little kid he taught us basically some nifty moves to get out of being held, tricks to help you get attention (Fire fire...) and then to run.

There were stretching exercises and some physical workout stuff, but not too much (cmon after you learn how to exercise there's no need to waste money paying someone so you can do pushups half the class). And there were Katas - series of movements - to be memorized perfectly for each belt. You learned strikes and blocks and stances, but the best parts were the games. Simon says: "Simon says everybody stand up, You - too slow - sit down. Simon didn't say sit down, you're out sit down. Simon says keep sitting down. Ok want another chance? ("yes") Ok stand up then, Simon never said stand up Take a seat, simon says take a seat. Ok simon says horse stance. Simon says sink into it. Hold it, simon says hold it. Feel that burn? ("yes") Simon never asked you take a steat. You, feel the burn? Feel the burn? Simon says feel the burn? ("yes") Ok, simon says ok, now back up, oooh you're all out take a seat simon says take a seat [now 1 guy is left grimacing trying to hold a horse stance] Congratulations you won, stand up, back up, cmon back up stand up simon says stand up back down simon says back down stand up up simon says stand up, ok good work, (offers hand to shake)...

There were also games for balance, games to avoid being caught in small rooms, and so on.

When you got older the games were less emphasized (damnit!) but you learned the exact way that things were done, scientific precision. The body had these components, these were what they did, lots of anatomy. As for the syles, it was all styles of martial arts. The body was broken down into Sections (forearm - section 2 of arm) Angles (45 degree, horizontal, vertical, skew between 45 and horizontal...) and Directions (N, NE, SW), with muscle tensions and velocities. With these components you could do ballet, bowling, soccer, taikwon do, hap ki do, pretty much anything. So it felt good to be able to understand what was going on. Then there were always more to learn as you went along.

As for fighting, though, the situations where you cannot avoid fighting are few and far between. If you can't walk away you can probably run, but if you fight you are fighting for your life. Thus I would not like the idea of a system where you have 2 styles of fighting - one lethal and one non-lethal. We were taught that you are always fighting to kill them, but if you somehow happen to notice a way to take them out without killing you probably want to do that. If you go to jail, so be it. Better jail than dead! If people go into fights expecting not to deal with death, or even not to get hit, then they are apt to be surprised - and not for the better.

 

[atek3]

thanks for the link to bullshido.net that page is great