MAS St. Etienne Model 1892 8mm Revolver "Lebel"

[rswartsell]

My recently deceased stepfather took 2 handguns as souvenirs from the WWII occupation of a police station on the French-German border. A Sauer Mod 1913 Old Model 7.65mm Auto and a MAS St. Etienne Model 1892 8mm revolver ("Lebel"). The pictures posted aren't the actual arms but posted for identification purposes only. They have come to me by inheritance with the original leather holsters and are to all appearances in remarkably good condition.

1. I have seen the 7.65mm round that the Sauer is chambered for equated to the .32 ACP cartridge. Can .32 ACP cartiges be safely used in this gun if in good operating condition?

2. I find that Gad Custom Reloaded Cartriges of Wisconsin will load the obsolete 8mm for the French 1892. Again, could they be safely used in this antique assuming good condition?

I have considered paying a gunsmith to detail strip and evaluate these weapons. Any comments on collectbility or value?

 

[.455_Hunter]

Welcome to THR, rswartsell!

I have a 1897 production M92 Lebel (complete w/ frag hits) that I have fired with good success using Fiocchi 8 mm Lebel ammo and plain old .32 Smith and Wesson Long.

 

[akbash]

I have a model 1873 in .45. I have no idea about the value but you don't see these at gun shows anymore. Alan

 

[Avenger]

.32ACP is exactly what you want for that Sauer. Same cartridge, different names. I've got a 1913 as well. Is yours a 'Behorden', with the additional safety? Seems likely to be one, given it came from a police station.

I've seen the 1913 range in value from $250 for a well-used model to almost $600 for almost NIB. Personally, I wouldn't sell it, given the family history with it. Plus, they are a pleasant little pistol to shoot, well worth keeping as a plinker, especially since .32 ACP seems to have escaped the jump in ammo prices.

I recommend that you avoid cheaper ammo though, mine used to jam regularly on WWB. They seem to prefer the 72gr Euro-style bullets to the 75gr US, apparently the rounder ogive of the lighter round helps feeding. The Sellier & Bellot 72gr are what I've been using, and I'm quite happy with the results I get.

BTW, the slide is locked back by lifting the trigger finger up as you pull the slide back. NOBODY seems to realize this at first.

 

[rswartsell]

Thanks!

Thanks for the welcome and the info!

Avenger- It does have the additional safety (I think), and thanks for the slide lock tip. I did not realize this and I haven't yet tried it but I'm sure it will be obvious when I do.

.455 Hunter- Thanks, you just saved me some $$ on ammo I'm sure.

Do you think it's advisable to take them to a gunsmith for detail stripping (shouldn't harm finish?) and functional examination?

No way I'll sell them, just nice to know what you have. I like to adhere to the philosophy that guns should be shot (if you can do so safely).

 

[rswartsell]

Avenger, could you expound on the "Behorden" designation? I googled it and only hit on German language references- und meine Deutsch ist nicht genug.

Thanks!

 

[rswartsell]

.455 Hunter, it would seem then that .32 S&W Short might also chamber and function? Probably not with good accuracy due to head spacing?

 

[rswartsell]

FYI, I cut and pasted my post into an e-mail according to the recommendations on another thread here on THR titled Appraisals Online that refers readers to the web page for Bonham's & Butterfield (the guys that do Antiqes Road Show).

The gentleman's reply quoted below;

"Dear Mr. Swartsell,
Your Sauer in excellent condition is worth $700-1000, the Lebel $300-500. Excellent condition in this type of weapon presumes over 95% original blue finish remaining on gun. If the finish is very worn, regardless of the mechanical condition of the gun, then the value can drop dramatically. As far shooting the guns I cannot make any judgements as this is out of my range of expertise. A competant gunsmith would be the best person to get this information from and test fire the guns for you. Be aware that refinishing is a definate negative on collectible arms.
James Ferrell, Specialist Arms & Armor Dept."

 

[Jim Watson]

455Hunter,

What "good success" do you have shooting .32 S&W L in the Lebel?
Specs I have show the head diameter as .050" undersize and the bullet .010" undersize. Seems like that would be swimming upstream against all standards.


I think half the posters on the Internet are afraid of being sued, what with the constant recommendations to search for a gunsmith to breathe on any surplus or second hand firearm.
The J.P. Sauer is one of the best guns of the type and the Lebel missed being a first rate military revolver only by its small caliber. Unless they have been terribly neglected or abused, I would clean, load and fire without worry. But I would use the right ammo in the Lebel.

 

[rswartsell]

Jim,

Thanks and I will follow your advice. I was somewhat surprised to find the Lebel 8mm still being commercially produced.

 

[Avenger]

The "Behorden" model was marketed extensively to police and other official departments, and only in .32ACP. The translation works out roughly as "Authority" model, but it isn't an official Sauer designation, just a way of designating the specific model variation. The only real difference between the Behorden model and the regular series was the side safety and the quality of the supplied leather holster. You COULD purchase the regular series with the side safety as an extra-cost option, but apparently very few people did so with the .32 version. Oddly enough, a fair percentage of the .25s I've seen have had it, but they aren't Behordens, since police departments didn't officially issue .25 pistols.

Cliff Notes: Side Safety+.32ACP=most likely Behorden.

I don't think there is any breakdown of production numbers available as to how many Behordens were made, but I would say about 1/3 of the examples I have seen had the safety.
There is a site out there that can tell you month and year of production by your serial number, unfortunately I lost it the last time I had computer troubles. ("Oh, the Bookmark-anity!")
Check your frame sides for additional serial numbers, police departments would typically stamp their own inventory numbers onto the pistol. "Social" organizations (Read that as Brownshirt Nazis) bought quite a few Sauers and similar small pistols as well, and these are usually stamped as well, but usually on the slide rather than the frame. Police stamps will be nicely lined up and well-struck with up to 3 digits, "social" ones are typically crudely stamped with single or double serials, and typically are of "7/21" or "7 of 21" format.

 

[Jim Watson]

Side safety?

The picture of the Behorden modell I have shows a safety blade in the trigger itself, kind of a Grandaddy Glock.

 

[rswartsell]

As an FYI I am finding references that Fiocchi has discontinued production of the 8mm Lebel (Pistol) cartridges. So I am back to the custom load option. Just as well because what sources I did find wanted over $49.00 a box for the Fiocchi whereas Gad Custom Reloading gets $25.00 per box + shipping. They are my option I believe. Anyone have experience with Gad Custom Reloading in Wisconsin?

 

[Avenger]

Jim, you are absolutely right. It is the trigger safety that sets the Behorden apart. I don't know why I kept typing "side safety", I think somehow I brain-barfed some of the decocking lever being deleted from the later 38H in there somehow. Totally and utterly a bonk on my part, and I hope I didn't cause too much confusion.

Kids, don't eat SweeTarts candies that have been hiding on top of the refrigerator since last Halloween.....They'll jack you up BAD.....