Master of the Bushmaster....

[GreatWhiteShark]

Hey everyone,
Im posting this for a friend of mine. He is having quite a few problems with a Bushmaster AR-15 he bought not too long ago. A few questions for ya... First, and foremost, he cleans it religously. Keeping it in immaculate condition at all times. The biggest aggrevation he is having is that it is not feeding right. The round is getting stuck when it is being fed into the chamber. When it does fire, it will eject the shell. Mainly using Wolf .223. Ive tried to tell him to use better ammo. Even though i use exclusively Wolf in my AK, and havent had any problems (well one or 2 duds) in cases and cases of ammo. Ive probably put around 6 or 7,000 rounds thru my WASR-10 and have only cleaned it once. It really is starting to piss him off, because he spent alot of money on it, and its still not reliable. Pissing him off even more when i put so much ammo through my AK and it never skips a beat. I try not to rub it in, but its hard.

Anyway, i want to help him out, so im on here troubleshooting. My friends usually come to me when they have a question on guns, and when i have a question i come on here. You guys rock, very helpfull and lots of info.


He has tried Winchester, Remington, Wolf, Black Hills and even some of his own reloads. Talking to a few guys at gunshops, they are saying to not use wolf, because of the laquer finish melts and gums up the action. Hell, i even bought him 2 brand new magazines to see if that would help. Hopefully ive painted the scenario well enough. Thanks for reading this.

 

[Father Knows Best]

Hey everyone,
Im posting this for a friend of mine. He is having quite a few problems with a Bushmaster AR-15 he bought not too long ago. A few questions for ya... First, and foremost, he cleans it religously. Keeping it in immaculate condition at all times. The biggest aggrevation he is having is that it is not feeding right. The round is getting stuck when it is being fed into the chamber. When it does fire, it will eject the shell. Mainly using Wolf .223. Ive tried to tell him to use better ammo. Even though i use exclusively Wolf in my AK, and havent had any problems (well one or 2 duds) in cases and cases of ammo. Ive probably put around 6 or 7,000 rounds thru my WASR-10 and have only cleaned it once. It really is starting to piss him off, because he spent alot of money on it, and its still not reliable. Pissing him off even more when i put so much ammo through my AK and it never skips a beat. I try not to rub it in, but its hard.

Well, there's your answer! Tell him to sell that AR and get an AK. Problem solved.

 

[GoRon]

He has tried Winchester, Remington, Wolf, Black Hills and even some of his own reloads. Talking to a few guys at gunshops, they are saying to not use wolf, because of the laquer finish melts and gums up the action. Hell, i even bought him 2 brand new magazines to see if that would help.

Just to be clear, it is happening with all above ammo?

If it is, make sure the gas key is tightly secured to the bolt carrier.

The gas key is the part that is on top of the carrier and held in with two screws. They should be tight and staked in so they cannot unscrew.

Is this a new or used rifle?

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Just some thoughts:
Is it lubed?
Mil-spec mags?
If new may need to be broken in some more.
Gas key as mentioned.
He might have messed up something cleaning it so much (if done wrong). Often, cleaning improperly is harder on the gun than firing it.

First things that come to mind. Always hard to tell without seeing the weapon.

 

[f4t9r]

Check the gas key as listed above
clean the gas tube
Should be something simple, I shoot the daylights out of AR's and clean once in awhile and never have a prob. Dont believe AR's belong in spot below AK"s.
They are very good and reliable. Just need to find the problem, All makesl have them once in awhile

 

[GreatWhiteShark]

Thanks guys for your fast replies. Yeah it is doing this with all the ammo that he has tried. Its very annoying for him. Infact, he went out early one morning to sight in his newly purchased scope. He was so damn mad at the weapon, he was gonna toss it, but had second thoughts because he didnt want to scratch the scope ! Talked to an owner of a small gunshop, the guy seems pretty knowledgeable about them and he says that he wont even stock wolf because of the laquer problem. Well its not a problem for my AK. It eats up wolf, burps and asks for more. The gunstore owner says he would put only GI ball ammo through it. The same stuff our guys in the sandbox are using. Im gonna relay all this info back to my buddy. Thanks again for all the replies. As always your are all very helpfull. Take it easy. Take it hard. Take it anyway you can get it.

 

[rkt88edmo]

Gas rings should have the gaps offset on the bolt, not aligned.

Do the test to see if the lubed bolt slides out of the carrier under the power of gravity. If it does, he needs new gas rings.

 

[Rockstar]

Most likely all the problems are caused by the Wolf ammo. Even if he thinks he's cleaned his Bushy, he should make another effort at cleaning the chamber and lug area, in order to absolutely remove the lacquer from that crappy Wolf ammo.

Advice about the gas key is good.

 

[Bottom Gun]

Tell your friend to check the gas rings on the rear of the bolt to make sure the slots in the rings aren't aligned with each other. If all three slots align, it won't seal properly and can cause short stroking, which will cause feeding problems.
He might also try different magazines if he hasn't already. I would suggest using GI mags.

FWIW, the lacquer on Wolf ammo does not melt. Try heating some brass with a torch and you'll see for yourself.

Wolf isn't loaded as hot as Nato ammo and it may not build up enough pressure to reliably function 20" AR's with the longer gas tube, especially if the rifle is still new and tight. I had that problem. Wolf would work fine in my 16", but not in my 20" until I had a few thousand rounds through the 20".

 

[MechAg94]

I have heard of people having problems with Wolf not working in Bushmasters before. It seems to me that a few people on this site have reported that.
My impression has been that some AR's like it, others don't. My Armalite eats it up just fine with descent accuracy.

Could this be an issue of .223/5.56 versus plain .223? I have heard there can be a difference when trying to use surplus style ammo.

 

[addecus]

if your friends rifle is a carbine, i'll tell you without a doubt what is wrong. the short barrelled ar's have a quick recoil impulse (means the shot of gas that cycles the action and ejects the empty case happens before the empty has a chance to contract in the chamber) solution, install a d-ring or a stronger extractor spring that will help the extractor keep its grip on the empty cases rim.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Take a blowtorch to a fired steel Wolf case, you still won't see the lacquer melt off. Lacquer is not the issue here.

However, there are two well known problems with Wolf ammo. The older lacquer-coated steel case stuff with the thick band of red sealant around the neck do cause issues. The sealant does melt off into the chamber and cause problems. Check the neck of the Wolf cartridge case for a red line - this is the sealant. If the Wolf he is using has that, he will need to aggressively clean the chamber and lugs with solvent capable of dissolving the sealant (soap and hot water work as well).

The second issue with Wolf ammo applies to steel cartridge cases in the AR(both polymer and lacquer coated). Because steel cases don't expand as much as brass cases, there is extra space between the chamber walls and the cartridge case that isn't present with brass ammo. Since the AR is a direct impingement gun, this space ends up getting filled with baked on carbon deposits. Usually you won't have a problem as long as you continue to use Wolf ammo; but when you switch to brass ammo the brass case tries to expand and ends up sticking to the slightly smaller chamber caused by the carbon build up. This can display as short-stroking, extraction failures, or failure to feed.

Anytime you use Wolf, you need to clean the chamber particularly well and make good use of a chamber brush on a non-spinning cleaning rod. However, if your friend keeps the gun as clean as you claim and is seeing the problem with several different brands of ammo, then it is unlikely Wolf is the problem (though the two issues above are still good things to be aware of). You say that the problem is in feeding new rounds. A few questions for you?

What kind of magazine(s) are you using?
Have you tried several different magazines, including magazines that are known to work in an AR?
Do the rounds get stuck when you chamber them manually using the charging handle?
Leave just one round in the magazine. Load the magazine and chamber the one round. Fire the one round. Has the bolt locked back on the empty magazine? Repeat this test 5-10 times.
Have you examined the rifle to make sure you don't have an M4 lower receiver extension with a standard barrel?
Have you examined the feed ramps to see where the rounds might be impacting on the feed ramp?
This isn't a Carbon15 by chance is it?

if your friends rifle is a carbine, i'll tell you without a doubt what is wrong. the short barrelled ar's have a quick recoil impulse (means the shot of gas that cycles the action and ejects the empty case happens before the empty has a chance to contract in the chamber) solution, install a d-ring or a stronger extractor spring that will help the extractor keep its grip on the empty cases rim.

I believe he mentioned the rifle had a feeding problem but was ejecting and extracting the cases fine. A case sticking due to higher gas pressure may still cause feed issues due to short stroking or cycling the bolt faster than an old magazine can position the next round; but a stronger extractor spring won't help with either.

 

[addecus]

your right, he says the problem is that the cartridge is stuck on feeding, not extraction. my bad. sorry.

 

[GoRon]

Leave just one round in the magazine. Load the magazine and chamber the one round. Fire the one round. Has the bolt locked back on the empty magazine? Repeat this test 5-10 times.

Is this the test you do to determine if your gun is short stroking?

I couldn't remember the procedure and was going to go and look it up when I had time.

The only reason I brought up the gas key right away was I seem to recall Bushy letting a batch of carriers out of the factory with unstaked or loose keys a while ago. Caused a brouhaha over at arfcom and still gets mentioned from time to time.

 

[Too Many Choices!?]

Ummm, why not just send it back to Bushmaster?

Make THEM fix it, or replace it... It is not your job to FIX a factory Bushmaster, that is what the warranty is forI guess even Bushmaster has QC issues every now and then, but my Clinton Ban Compliant, M4A3 is flawless !

 

[OldWolf]

I have fired thousand's of rounds of Wolf .223 in my Bushmaster AR with zero problems. Not having seen the gun I'd first verify the magazine is not casuing the problem. Next would be checking the gas key as mentioned earlier. Mine did come loose at one point. I used Loktite and havn't had any problems since.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Quote:
Leave just one round in the magazine. Load the magazine and chamber the one round. Fire the one round. Has the bolt locked back on the empty magazine? Repeat this test 5-10 times.


Is this the test you do to determine if your gun is short stroking?

Yes, that is the test for short-stroking.

The only reason I brought up the gas key right away was I seem to recall Bushy letting a batch of carriers out of the factory with unstaked or loose keys a while ago.

Yup, could definitely be an issue that affects feeding if the carrier is improperly staked.

 

[TheEgg]

Most likely --

1. Bad magazine(s).
2. Key not staked/tight.

Worrying about Wolf will likely only lead you down a false path.

 

[Rockstar]

I don't know from personal experience whether the lacquer on Wolf ammo melts during firing or not, as I've never used Wolf ammo. I do believe (and a quick phone call will verify this) that Bushmaster warns against the use of Wolf in their rifles.

Another thing I know is that putting a torch to a FIRED Wolf cases isn't relevant to this discussion. Pull a bullet from an unfired Wolf case, remove the primer, then put the torch to the case and see what happens to the lacquer. (Or, if you have enough nerve, just put a torch to an unfired Wolf round. )

Most likely culprit, as others have stated, are the magazines. If the friend is using G.I. magazines with quality ammo, then, obviously, something else is wrong. One thing I can guarantee you...whatever's wrong is something really simple.

 

[Father Knows Best]

I don't know from personal experience whether the lacquer on Wolf ammo melts during firing or not, as I've never used Wolf ammo. I do believe (and a quick phone call will verify this) that Bushmaster warns against the use of Wolf in their rifles.

In the bad old days, Wolf ammo was lacquered to prevent corrosion of the steel cases. Because of issues with the laquer melting in hot chambers, Wolf switched to a polymer coating some time ago. The polymer film does not melt. None of the Wolf ammo imported recently is lacquered. If you're buying from a major retail outlet or distributor, it is almost certain that you are getting the newer polymer coated stuff. If you're not sure, ask. The better ammo sellers will know and will tell you whether it is lacquer or polymer.

I use Wolf 7.62x39 in my AK. I've bought about 3,000 rounds of it in the last 12 months. All of it has been the newer polymer coated stuff.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Because of issues with the laquer melting in hot chambers, Wolf switched to a polymer coating some time ago.

This is one of those things I believe is simply Internet legend. I have never seen anyone demonstrate that they can melt the lacquer off of a Wolf steel case in any environment (ovens, guns, etc.). In fact, most people who claimed the lacquer was an issue referred to a "gummy, red mess". The lacquer is certainly not red (though the neck sealant is). Wolf certainly does have problems; but the lacquer isn't one of them.

The Wolf polymer coating still presents problems much like the lacquered steel cases did and I believe it was for the same reason - steel doesn't expand like brass and in a direct impingement gun (AR) this causes a nasty carbon build up that makes shooting brass cased ammo afterwards problematic.

Another thing I know is that putting a torch to a FIRED Wolf cases isn't relevant to this discussion.

Unless you are making the argument that firing the round suddenly removes all the lacquer from the steel casing or renders the remaining lacquer impermeable to melting, then it certainly is relvant to this discussion. However, I encourage you to try this with an unfired case that has had the primer and powder removed. I feel certain the results will be similar.

 

[Father Knows Best]

This is one of those things I believe is simply Internet legend. I have never seen anyone demonstrate that they can melt the lacquer off of a Wolf steel case in any environment (ovens, guns, etc.). In fact, most people who claimed the lacquer was an issue referred to a "gummy, red mess". The lacquer is certainly not red (though the neck sealant is).

O.k., then let me be specific. Wolf used to lacquer its cases. It doesn't, anymore. Now, the cases are polymer coated. I can't vouch for why the change was made -- only that it was made. Various sources claim this to be an improvement. Of the 3,000 rounds I have recently purchased, none were lacquered. I have never had trouble with Wolf ammo in my AK clone, FWIW.

The Wolf polymer coating still presents problems much like the lacquered steel cases did and I believe it was for the same reason - steel doesn't expand like brass and in a direct impingement gun (AR) this causes a nasty carbon build up that makes shooting brass cased ammo afterwards problematic.

What's your basis for claiming that the steel cases don't expand, and that this causes carbon buildup? Is there a paper out there somewhere discussing experiments with steel vs. brass cases in direct impingement guns like the AR?

 

[GoRon]

Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts

However, if your friend keeps the gun as clean as you claim and is seeing the problem with several different brands of ammo, then it is unlikely Wolf is the problem

I don't see the point in an argument about Wolf ammo. Most guns will run on Wolf some won't. As BR said above, if he keeps his gun real clean any possible issues related to Wolf are moot anyway.

Originally posted by TheEgg:

Most likely --

1. Bad magazine(s).
2. Key not staked/tight.

Worrying about Wolf will likely only lead you down a false path.
Today 10:46 AM

+1

 

[Coronach]

Here is a simple way to determine if Wolf Ammo is at all responsible, or in any way contributes.

1. Stop using Wolf Ammo.
2. Clean gun thoroughly.
3. Use some other brand of quality .223 ammo.
4. Troubleshoot.
5. Once gun is running fine, switch back to Wolf
6. See what happens.

Others have given great advice about stuff that might be wrong with the Bushy. I'd say just set aside all the Wolf ammo, clean the gun, and start investigating their ideas one by one. After you have the gun running like a top, switch back to the Wolf ammo, if you want, and see what happens. No use trying to solve what might be two problems at once.

I own an AR. I own several thousand rounds of Wolf ammo. However, none of it is in .223/5.56- it is all 7.62x39 and 5.45x39. I feed my AKs Wolf, I feed my AR NATO surplus and some high-grade fodder.

Mike

 

[Rockstar]

Is the guy using a chamber brush when he's getting that Bushy "really clean," or is he just running a rod down the bore? If lacquered Wolf is the problem, then the chamber will need to be scrubbed with a good chamber brush.

As to Bartholomew's suggestion that I try to fry a Wolf case, I wouldn't buy a Wolf case, even as part of an adolescent experiment. I shoot my own LC brass reloads, almost exclusively, through my Bushy. I NEVER have a failure.