Mauser experts-info please

[jrfoxx]

SO, I have a mauser 98k I bought recently, and with much googling and searching here, I cant seem to find much good info on how one tells if its a Russian capture or not.All I have found are references to "capture screws" and electropenciled serial numbers and forced matching.So, whats the scoop? How can one tell a Russian capture, from one that isnt? mine has a small Century import mark electropenciled near the bayo lug, but no other electropenciled marks anywhere I can find, and all stamped dates codes, etc are intact, and in the correct spots, and dont appear altered at all. Serials and arsenal numbers are mostly mismatched and not forced in any way.How can one tell if its a Russian capture or "non-capture" mix-master? Receiver is marked with the eagle/swastca over an arsenal "214" stamp.also has a 1942 date, and the "duv" arsenal code for Berlin-Lubecker.Also, cant seem to find any markings on the stock anywhere (either missing or worn off, looks lie missing though), which sounds like a Russian capture feature, but like I sad, no electropenciled marks or forcing anywhere, which sounds like a non-Russian capture indicator......Any help IDing this thing? It's got me curious now....
Thanks in advance.

Heres a pic (I can take specific deatil ones if someone want/needs them for IDing)

 

[dstorm1911]

Well capture screws are reffering to the smaller screws that lock the actual action screws in place hence the term "capture screw" as far as the difference between a Russian capture versus a non capture without very detailed analysis of the gun itself the best guide will be where did you get it and how much did it cost? And have the german markings been removed?

 

[brockj]

Generally the russian captures have been reblued, have a coat of shellac over the stock, but another dead giveaway is if there is the serial number stamped on the left side of the stock. This number will match what is on the receiver/barrel.

Generally if it is a complete mixmaster with electro penciling, that is another giveaway.

 

[brockj]

another possiblity is someone put it together from parts...

 

[MilsurpShooter]

http://mauser98k.internetdsl.pl/kodyen.html

While it might not be any help, take a look through there and see if you can't find some more info on your rifle. Good to read through either way lol

 

[jrfoxx]

dstorm1911-has all the markings intact (including the eagles and swasticas, no electropenciling anywhere (except the improrter's info as reuired),and I got it fro SOG for $255 a couple months ago.

brockj-stock looks to have a thin coat of shellac or something similar, and it DOES have a mumber near the butt that matches the receiver serial (I missed it earlier, the sling or my hand, was covering it ).Also, all the serials are mimatched, but they are not electropenciled, they look like original stampings.Doesnt really appear to have been re-blued, but its kinda hard fr me to really say.

So, the stock leads me to believe its a Russian capture, but the intact,original makings and lack of electropenciling (and possble lack of re-bluing), sounds like not...
Based on all that, and the price, I'm guessing its either a Russian capture that just had the markings spared and missed the electropenciling, or its a non-capture, but someone repaced the original stock with a capture one at some point... which probly makes its technical capture/non-capture status a moot point.My guess based on all that, is that brockj is right and someone (individual/company, not an arsenal) put it together from all non-capture marked/non-defaced parts, and a capture stock.
Well, it looks nice with the un-adulterated markings and lack of eletropencil butchering, so I'm plenty happy with it (always was, just curious about the whole capture thing) as a good example of a WWII Nazi marked Mauser for my poor mans c&r collection.
Jay_Anderson-Yeah I had seen that site.Interesting info there...
Thanks all.Very helpful and full of answers as always.I love this place.

 

[dstorm1911]

Romanian, SOG had a bunch of these the Romanians were originally armed by Germany and then part way through WWII swapped sides the guns are the best ya can get as most are all matching and original condition as they just got stored while the Romanians re-armed with Russian weapons the mausers sat in storage on the Cugir arsenal grounds all these years they are about as close as ya can get to an Original German 98K without gettin one outa Hitlers bunker and were usually in excellent shape The stocks were shelaced to preserve them as Romania doesn't like to trust cosmoline alone since it tends to permeat wood they would shelac wood prior to cosmoline imersion this can be stripped with denatured Alcohol and a correct linseed oil finish applied

EDIT; BTW Ya got a screamin great deal don't let go of it for less than $400 and thats if your drunk at the time the $400 is offered

 

[jrfoxx]

dstorm1911-
thanks for the updated info.Your explanation of the Romanian guns does seem to fit mine pretty well.Hadnt heard or read anythng about them, so I didnt even know they existed.Good to know that I got a good deal, and its a little rarer/more correct/etc than the average ones(even if the serials dont all match, but the arsenal numbers do, so...no biggie, to me at least.most milsurps I have or have seen dont match 100%,as armies didnt care about collector value, just having functional guns).I was VERY happy with it just based on the great codition the finish, metal, stock, and bore are in, and that it had all the eagles/swastias (like 5 or 6 of them).mad a good WWII addition for me.
Ive bought like 7 c&r guns from SOG and have alwas been VERY pleased with all of them.Great company, great guns, great prices, great customer servce, and it looks like this one is no exception.Thanks again.

 

[jrfoxx]

I think I'll probly leave the shellac on it, as I dont want to screw up a great looking and (somewhat) more valuable gun by altering it (even if doing so makes it technically more correct), as with my luck, I'd mess something up somehow.Also, the story behind it as an uncaptured German gun, given by them to Romania, adds a little extra history to itdiffeent from either the captured ones, or "regular" uncaptured nazi ones, IMHO

 

[cracked butt]

Just from the reddish hue and shininess of the stock, I'd pretty confidently say its a Russian capture. The cleaning rod missing is another dead giveaway and the mismatched bolt is the cherry on the sundae. Of course bubba could have done all of those things and rubbed some tru-oil mixed with stain to make it 'all purty like' but with the large numbers of Russian captures that have been imported lately, its more likely to be one of those.

The Soviets took the 'unnecessary' steel parts like the locking screws and cleaning rods and melted them down to make other things.

On the good side, Russians possessed headspace guages and knew how to use them correctly- two things beyond what the average bubba is capable of. The rifle should shoot very well and is a nice piece of history.

 

[dstorm1911]

jrfoxx, about 3 years ago While in Bucharest I had an oppertunity to bid on these guns, they all looked exactly like the one ya have pictured but...... it was too rich for us and we couldn't get the funding in time to place a bid, they knew what they had and how much they were worth with the markings all still intact as opposed to the Russian versions that had been scrubbed etc.... the lot was for 20,000 rifles and they were very high priced for the average milsurp importer at $110 ea ........ we just couldn't do it Don wanted me to try to get a couple thousand but at that time it was all or none...... later I heard they broke em down on the price and smaller quantities too and TWO importers went in on the deal together........ if ya ever do decide to sell drop me a line those were some of the nicest I'd ever came across and SOG just blew em out the door I was on the road at the time and didn't find out till the ones like yours were already gone

 

[Jeff F]

If it has all the Nazi marks then its not a Russian capture. The Russians peened out all the Nazi marks then refinished and renumbered all of the captured German weapons.

 

[markallen]

Look for a X. stamped anywhere, usually on the bolt, reciever, barrel, and the stock. The X is suppossed to be crossed rifles. It is a Russian capture proofmark. The Russians didn't necessarily remove all the Nazi markings. I have a Polish WZ.29, with russian capture X stamps, and a smooth reciever, with no markings, other then the serial number on the reciever, and two small circle Z's. Take the wood off, and it's another story. All the proofmarks are where they are not visible. The reciever wasn't scrubbed, just never stamped. I was told by a Mauser expert, that some of the Radom produced rifles never had any proofmarks, since they were sent to Spain during their civil war. I asked him how a rifle used in Spain would end up in Russia, and was told that Spain sent a devisian to serve with the Nazis on the Eastern front. I wish these old mausers could talk.

 

[jrfoxx]

markallen-yeah, I read about that when I first started looking into this, and checked everywhere.No "x" that I can find anywhere.Also, thats very interesing about some of the Radoms not having proof marks, and about the spaniards with the Germans on the Eastern front....
These Mausers are definitely VERY interesting to learn about with all the variations, nuances, and often obscure historical facts surrounding them and the countries that used them.
With mine,I think the evidence is looking pretty good that dstorm1911 is right about it being a Romanian.It sure seems to explain a lot of little things that made it look it has some Russian capture and non-capture features at the same time...

I'm going to keep doing some internet digging to see if I can come up with some links to good info and ID traits for these Romainian guns to post in here for future referance, and for those milsurp and history lovers that are just curious.
dstorm1911-thanks again for all the info and the anecdotes on these crious little Mausers.I manage to learn something everyday in these forums.

 

[byf43]

If it has all the Nazi marks then its not a Russian capture. The Russians peened out all the Nazi marks then refinished and renumbered all of the captured German weapons.

Not quite correct.


My byf43 and my ar41 both are Russian Capture K98k rifles, and both have all of their markings, intact.

The dead giveaway on my K98k rifles are the "X" on the (left side of) front receiver ring(s), plus, the mismatched numbers.
Plus, the left side of the stock (for a right-hand shooter, that's the side that your cheek would be, when shooting) has the serial number from the rifle stamped into the stock. (Not hand numbered. . . these are uniform [in size]numbers.)



The fact that the front sight hood, the cleaning rod and the lock screws are missing is another dead-giveaway.

If you want/need these parts, contact Springfield Sporters. They usually have these parts (ORIGINAL parts, not repro) in stock, and are VERY GOOD people to deal with.


Here's my byf43 after refinishing the stock and adding the parts from Springfield Sporters.


Note the stock right behind the front band. The Russians repaired a cracked stock and the piece fell out while refinishing.
After some acetone and epoxy, the piece is now permanent, and gives this old rifle some more character.
I only wish that I could find out what exploits this rifle has had!

History. . . . ain't it great!!!!!!!!

 

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Look for an X on the receiver. It appears that yours is a RC from what the stock appears like with a shellac-looking appearance. As another member has said, if the serial number of the rifle is stamped on the left side of the stock (opposite side from where the bolt is) it's a Russian Capture.