Max Velocity. Why?

[X-Rap]

Yea I think every body with a worthy opinion should be shooting down loaded flat nosed bullets trhough a tube fed lever action thats plenty accurate at 50 yds cause anything further or faster just ain't huntin.
I think I'll just go out and take my model T to town if I can dodge the horse turds and make it through the mud road.

 

[1911Tuner]

Are you suggesting we give the rifle the benefit of the doubt and cherry pick our data? With your 7 shot group, should we throw out the outliers and choose only the most impressive data to draw our conclusions from?

Nosir. Just sayin' that we should look at the whole picture instead of the worst...or the best...that the rifle will do. That's why I pointed out that going by the absolute worst, the maximum divergence from the point of aim is X. The others will be closer than that.

Simply put...an average.

Look at it the way that car magazines report the standing quarter mile time of a test vehicle. They don't run it once and write it down. They make three runs and average the three.

My way of evaluating rifle accuracy has been to find the geographic center of the group, and measure from that point to the center of each hole...then average those distances in order to get a closer idea of what I can expect from that rifle with that ammunition with a given shot.

 

[~z]

Thanks for the clarification, I understand your point. Interesting way of looking at it
~z

 

[fprefect]

Importance of Velocity

This is a question that has been argued and undoubtedly will be continued to be argued when the question of accuracy vs MV is concerned.

I look at it basically from two standpoints. Those being what are you going to be using the loads for, and how much accuracy are you willing to give up for additional velocity.

When calculating energy, either muzzle energy, or the energy a bullet has remaining when it reaches the target, the formula for calculating energy is
E = 1/2 X (mass X velocity2). (the 2 is supposed to represent squared) In other words each time you double the velocity the energy increases by a factor of 4. Double the bullet weight from 50 grs to 100 grs, your energy at the muzzle or at the target will be double (given the same velocity) using the 100 gr. bullet.

Should you double the Velocity however, since the velocity is squared, a bullet of any weight will increase the muzzle or target energy 4 times. So those striving for every extra fps of velocity are going to see the energy go up twice as fast than by increasing the bullet weight by the same percentage.

So velocity is Very important, IF and only IF the added pressures that go with increasing the velocity does not effect the accuracy to a point you can still hit what you are aiming at. Almost all "maximum" loads with any bullet weight, will NOT be the most accurate load, so it comes down to a matter if the extra velocity is going to be USEFUL velocity and that will depend on what game you are after, at what range, and under what kind of conditions (particularly the wind) you are most likely to encounter.

As you can probably see, there is never going to be a cut and dry answer unless you are lucky enough to find a load that is near max. allowable pressure and velocity, and happens to also be your most accurate load. But that ain't gonna happen, at least not very often, so you a faced with a compromise. If hunting in brushing conditions where most of your shots are going to be at 100 yds or less, go with the velocity, at that range a 1 1/2 MOA group is going to do just as well as a 1 MOA group and the extra 200-300 fps of vel you may be able to achieve should be very useful.

At long ranges of 300-500 yards it becomes a matter of compromise. The less bullet drop and added energy of the bullet out at 400 yards is again going to be extremely useful, particularly if shooting in very windy conditions. But if the added velocity is going to cost you over 1MOA which at 100 shouldn't be a problem, at 400-500 is likely to result in a miss.

So with me, it comes down to spending some time on range (if you haven't already done so) to tailor a load to best fit the conditions. Personally I would prefer to give up velocity for accuracy at long ranges even though it means less energy on the target and a greater bullet drop to compensate for. After all, you have to hit your target first, but others will no doubt disagree, opting for the flatter shooting load at ultra-long ranges.

So after all that, I think I can safely say there is no answer to the question that would apply 100% of the time. It just comes down to giving yourself the best changes of bagging the game at all ranges and under all conditions which may even involve carrying 2 different loads just to keep as many bases covered as possible.

F. Prefect

 

[BADUNAME27]

It's cause speed kills and some are too lazy to learn to dope wind or cheap to buy a range finder. It also has to do with American Male Bravado. For some it adds an inch to the length of their penis if they have a 200fps gain in velocity over their buddy.

I know my junk grew 6" when I built my 4375fps 300-338 Lapua Magnum.

Woo Hoo!

 

[MCMXI]

Almost all "maximum" loads with any bullet weight, will NOT be the most accurate load

How can you possibly make such a comment given the overwhelming number of calibers, powders, bullets, cases, rifles etc? You can only make a statement about YOUR experience, not ALL caliber, bullet, powder and rifle combinations. Somehow I doubt you've tried every caliber, every rifle, every powder, every bullet, every primer, every case etc to make such a general statement.

Just off the top of my head, THE match load for numerous service rifle shooters using a .223 is 25.0gr of Varget behind a 77gr SMK HPBT. Guess what ... it's a max load. My .308 match load is 44.1gr of Reloder 15 behind a 178gr A-MAX and I can show you targets (rapid and slow) shot at 100, 200, 300, 400 and 600 yards that will convince you that this is a very accurate load under real-world conditions. You won't find that load listed in any manual ... I guarantee it! It is definitely beyond a max load.

I'm beginning to think that many of you have selective memories or worse. I wonder how many of you started out with the minimal load listed and increased the charge until you found a load that was accurate ... and then you stopped there. Now you claim that the most accurate load is NEVER the maximum load. Well I've got one word for you .... NODES .... and there are many of them. There are even small nodes between the larger more obvious ones and the nodes don't care about how much powder is written down in a book. This may be a shock to you but there are accuracy nodes where barrel harmonics are minimized well beyond published maximum loads. If you choose to stop at a node that is below published max loads, at least have the intelligence to recognize that you are merely at one node which may not be the most stable or the most accurate node.

As for velocity and accuracy, has anyone considered that it is how YOU handle recoil that has a HUGE affect on accuracy? Maybe if you could manage the recoil better (of a faster load) perhaps it'd be more accurate for you.

 

[444]

For me there are a number of factors to consider in the load I am putting together.

There are times when I simply just want to load the hottest round that is still safe.
Some of this to me is just logical. For example. If I am loading .357 cartridges, my load is going to be at or near max. If I am shooting .357s, I want to be shooting .357s. I could shoot .38s and most of the time I do. But when I load .357 ammo in the gun, I want the max performance I can get. Why ? Because I can. That is often the point for owning that particular gun. I would shoot a .22 but variety is the spice of life so I own more powerful firearms and want to experience what it is like to shoot them. I may not have any other reason than the fact that I want to do it. This is a hobby for me, so some of what I do with it has no practical purpose other than my own enjoyment.
Another good reason (IMO) is that it is just an exercise in handloading. Handloading for me is another hobby in and of itself. I don't handload just to provide myself with ammunition to shoot. I handload because I enjoy it and like to play around with things. My goal isn't to find the one perfect load for my guns (nessessarily). I like to try different loads. Loads that are as quiet as possible, loads that are as powerful as possible, loads with different bullets, loads for use with my suppressors, loads for hunting, loads for target shooting, loads that lighten recoil, loads with cast bullets...........................

Heavy loads are a part of it. If that isn't for you, great. Enjoy the hobby as you see fit. As long as you are having fun and not hurting anyone else, go for it.
I love the guys that have such a high opinion of themselves that they feel the need to be condescending to anyone that does anything different than they do. I am not talking about the original post but for some of the replies, the shoe certainly fits. Wear it.

 

[USSR]

Agree with 1858, there are few "absolutes" in handloading. A particular maximum load for my .308 FN SPR is the most accurate load it shoots.

Don

 

[snuffy]

If you've been around shooting and hunting for a while, you start to recognize certain behavior. Like the difference between shooters and hunters. Or should I say marksmen and hunters. A range/hunting-fishing club I used to belong to had what we called a jug shoot. Water filled gallon milk jugs were hung from wires from 50 to 100 yds, five in a row. Course of fire was 5 shots in 1 minute, STANDING UNSUPPORTED. 20 rounds comprised a complete shoot. In the course of a ten year run, only 5 perfect 20 X 20 was shot! I managed one of those.

This range was frequented by shooters benching their rifles, and other weapons striving for accuracy. When asked if they'd like to try the jug shoot, most said, "I'm not any good at standing up to shoot"!! Just how the heck do those guys manage to hit a deer if they don't practice standing? The jug shoot was fun, the jugs pop pretty good, and there's SOME bragging rights too. It also function tested your rifle, it was no surprise to me to see a bunch of semi-autos that would NOT fire five rounds without jamming! Or magazine troubles with bolt guns, and lever guns.

I think what we should have is a big fail-safe woods or area with some terrain, where there's life size deer silhouettes at various ranges. Sort of like sporting clays with rifles. Various rules would be needed like use whatever position you want to shoot from, or provide a log or tree branch to rest your rifle on. Not only would it be fun, but you'd know if your rifle would function, and you'd learn to improvise the best rest or shooting position.

[/QUOTE]I did have a 300 WSM that got more accurate as I approached max loads but I sold it before I got it dialed in because at 65 plus grains a shot a full pound of powder was only good for a little over a 100 rounds![/QUOTE]

Yer kidding, right? Well you better get a 300 savage or thutty-thutty, they burn very little powder! As for that 300 WSM, so does mine! My top load is also the most accurate.

 

[Venado]

I love hyper-velocity loads. It is not a macho thing, but is a challenge. My belief is, use what you have and make it do what you want, instead of going out and buying something bigger. I am not motivated by fear, therefore I have achieved things you would not believe. Through seeking the ultimate load, I have learned many things that I would otherwise not have learned. By the way, I get so sick of hearing how the .45 acp is big enough without expanding. Why not take a hard-ball bullet and make it expand to 3/4". It has penetration and expansion and makes a .75 caliber hole (it can be done). The only reason many people don't like such things is they don't know how to do it themselves, or are too afraid.

 

[~z]

Venado, I'd love to peruse your log books. Care to share any data?
~z

 

[Venado]

~Z: This thread would be shut down if I were to share my load data. I will give some clues. The 460 Roland gives .44 mag. performance out of .45 acp hand-guns. The 460 Roland is 1/16" longer than a .45acp to keep it from inserting in a .45acp firearm, but the oal is the same. They both have the same powder capacity. So why have a 460 Roland. The .45 acp can be made to out perform .357 sig, 10 mm, .357mag., and 44 mag.

The case capacity of the .45acp is larger than a .357mag. or a 10mm.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

 

[fireman 9731]

While everyone here has good points, I need to point out something else...

Some people hot-rod cartridges for the same reason that they hot-rod a car... because they can. It doesn't matter if it gets gallons to the mile, runs on high octane race fuel, and wont even get 500 miles out of an engine. They are spending money they don't have to buy parts they don't need to impress people that they don't even know. My car is better that yours because its faster.

Its the same with guns... bragging rights... my .237 Whizzm is better than your .223 Vanilla... because its faster.

Its human nature at its finest. Everybody wants to be better than everybody else... and somewhere along the line, faster got perceived as better.

 

[snuffy]

Its human nature at its finest. Everybody wants to be better than everybody else... and somewhere along the line, faster got perceived as better.

Faster IS better if you're shooting long range either for hunting or target shooting. Get over the assumption that anybody that's loading a magnum cartridge to it's potential is some kinda egomaniac or macho braggart.

I don't boast about how fast my bullets are. But it's damn nice to know they're going as fast as what they're supposed to be. If I get to sit on the edge of a huge alfalfa field, I want to know exactly where that bullet will hit at 3,4, or 500 yards. In order to know that, I need to know the velocity. Also it needs to be as fast as the cartridge is capable of going. Settling for a round that's no faster than a maxed out 30-06 from my 300 WSM is NOT why I bought it! I don't even care what it looks like, just so it shoots!

Entering what the chronograph says into software like the Sierra infinity program, will give you a trajectory for your bullet. They don't JUST cover their bullets either. Most of the popular bullets are in there. Enter where you want to be sighted in at, like 200 yds., it will tell you how high you should be @ 100 yds, and how low you will be out to 1000 yds. You also need to know the BC of your bullet.

I suspect that a lot of the comments on this thread come from people that are loading ammo that once fired a small group. They then loaded a bunch, sighted in and went hunting. They probably don't have access to a chrono, so they're in the dark about the trajectory. Or they believe what the manual SAID it SHOULD be. There's fast barrels and there's slow barrels. Meaning, they don't behave anything like the norm for that cartridge.

I have one of those "SLOW" barrels. It's a Ruger .280. It's REALLY slow, 200 fps slower that what it should be. There's NO load that will reach the potential of the .280 cartridge, believe me, I've tried!:banghead: Know something? It's a deer killing machine. Loaded with nosler 140 ballistic tips, it drops them dead right there DRT! It has accounted for at least 20 whitetails, many before I knew it was only doing about 2600 fps!

 

[1911Tuner]

The only reason many people don't like such things is they don't know how to do it themselves, or are too afraid.

Well...When you're touching off some 60,000 pounds per square inch less than a foot from the end of your nose, there's very good reason to be...cautious. Many of us know how. Most of us know better.

Things that I've learned in 40 years of handloading:

There's nothing that you can prove with a handloaded cartridge that hasn't already been proven,

and...

The pressure required to accelerate a 150-grain bullet to 3,000 fps in 22 inches of rifled barrel is more than sufficient to blow your eyes through the back of your head.

Pushing the envelope with pressure is a little like keeping a large Boa Constrictor for a pet. It's perfectly fine for years...until one day, all of a sudden...it's not.