Maximizing the 9mm

[Southern Shooter]

I have two 9mm's pistols...a Ruger P-89 and a Ruger P-95 semi-auto. I am not in a position to buy more handguns and am NOT ready to rid myself of either of these, yet. I understand these are not in the league with a .40 S&W or .45 ACP. But, I want to maximize the ability of these 9's for self-protection.

What is currently the ultimate self-protection 9mm ammo on the market? Any input...any actual experiences with such ammo?

Thanks

 

[Josh Aston]

Whatever is most reliable and accurate out of your gun. Don't let people kid you that the 9mm is not on par with the .40 and .45. I don't intend to imply that the 9mm is as much a death ray as the .45. I mean the .45 sucks just as bad as the 9mm. They are all handgun rounds, not death rays. A tenth of an inch and a couple grains don't make much difference when what you're shooting is measured in feet and pounds.

 

[Ninja42]

9mm is already optimized for its role. Like everything else in this world, choosing a gun in 9mm parabellum its a tradeoff, and in this case the tradeoff consists in sacrificing some kinetic energy for higher magazine capacity and a more manageable recoil. You should focus more on the strengths your guns have rather than their weaknesses, because the optimal caliber simply does not exist. Stand by your choice, and train to utilize your guns advantages.

Also, 9mm is NOT a sissy round. When placed properly, it will do its job exactly as well as a .40, a .45 or a phased plasma rifle in the 40 kilowatt range. Getting some good JHP rouns for your guns might help maximize your guns performance, but neither .40 nor the .45 guns will perform well with bad ammo of the wrong type either.

 

[Shifty]

i use speer gold dot 124+p ammo with my glock 26. i like the bonded jacket and core, and they feed smooth as butter for me. they are as accurate as i am capable of being. used by alot of LE agencies. expensive though.

whatever you choose, buy at least 200 rounds or so, and beat them through your weapon. you want to make sure they "harmonize" with your pistol.

subtle differences in bullet design, case diameter, powder loading, primer hardness, etc, means that not all 9mm ammo in the same weight will function reliably in all weapons.

or for the cost of all that ammo, you could buy a mossberg 500

 

[Mainsail]

All of the modern tests that I’ve read about seem to indicate that the Federal 147gr HST is at the top of the heap. Note that HST is not the same as Hydrashock.

 

[Seancass]

i think that if you are shooting a type of ammo and it jams in any way, you should not consider it for carry. even if it is ultra-death-ray-shock ammo, if it jams, its not doing you a bit of good.

shoot enough to know whats reliable and accurate and just use whatever it is.

 

[1911austin]

But, I want to maximize the ability of these 9's for self-protection.

The best advice is to hit what you shoot at.

 

[Chrome]

Like others before me have said, put the bullet where it counts. If you can put two in the chest and one in the head, do you think it really matters whether you are using 9mm, .40, or .45?

Later,
Chrome...

 

[roscoe]

Just buy premium hollowpoints and you have done enough equipment-wise. The 9mm+P is plenty of cartridge if you do your part. Look at the gelatin tests - you really can't tell the difference between 9mm, .40, .357SIG and .45.

gelatin tests from Brassfetcher: http://www.brassfetcher.com/

 

[2ndamd]

Hi Southern shooter.
I think the 9mm is just as powerful as the 40 and 45. Meaning it is a handgun and capable of only so much.

Please visit www.ammoman.com and check out his 9mm section. In there he has a Federal 9mm 115 grain +p+ round that does over 1300 fps. In Evan Marshall's and Ed Sanow's book (Street Stoppers) they looked at alot of different ammo and how it performed in actual police shootings. This HOT Federal round was rated at a 93% one shot stop in actual shootings when a torso hit was registered.

This 93% is better than all the 180 grain JHP .40 S&W rounds and many of the non+p .45 rounds. So, do NOT feel under-gunned with the 9mm. When the right ammo is used it is just as effective in stopping people.
Plus you have two very good guns to shoot it out of. Maybe later you can add the SR9

Seriously, this is no joke. Even in their follow up study of actual shootings this Federal BPLE round was shown to be a VERY effective round in actual shootings. The 9mm is a good caliber. You just have to use the right ammo to make it as effective as the best .40 and .45 ammo.

I am not taking anything away from the Speer GDHP 124 grn +P round which is good too. But, the studies of actual shootings show this Federal BPLE 9mm 115 grn +P+ round to be the best in the 9mm class.

And ammoman has some great prices on it for being a premium round.

http://www.ammoman.com/index.htm

 

[Hauptmann]

Don't trust Marshall and Sanow data:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/afte.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/sanow-strikes-out.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-discrepancies.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-statistical-analysis.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/streetstoppers.htm

There's a reason why law enforcement no longer assist them with their data collection and why they are no longer invited to assist the FBI in ballistics workshops.


The 9mm is no slouch. In fact, it has greater penetration abilities in more dense, elastic materials such as rubber than the .40 or .45. Ballistic gel mimics dead, relaxed, swine muscle. When a muscle is contracted or at the very least tensed, its density and elasticity greaty increase which is why in actual street shootings you will read about .40s and .45s not penetrating past the rib cage.

Speaking of the rib cage, this is a MAJOR barrier to handgun hollow point ammunition. A modern hollow point reaches healthy expansion resulting in a parachute effect within the first 1-2" of penetration. This means that when it reaches the ribs of the rib cage it is no longer a conical penetrator, but a soft pancake spreading its energy over a wider area. The result is what we observe in many LE shootings......bullets lodging in the rib cage. The 9mm and .357sig do not seem to have this problem all that often. This is most likely due to their sectional density and the fact that they have to displace less fat, muscle, bone, and other external barriers before they can get to the goodies.....the internal organs. Another thing to consider is that the 9mm is has a greater chance of passing between the ribs due to its more slim profile.

Here's a few gel tests for your pleasure. Be sure to read the text to understand what the testing means:

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000964

However, the gel tests do not always demonstrate the abilites of ammunition......such as been observed in bullets not penetrating past the rib cage. An example would be a dry phone book test. Keep in mind this is not in vitro, nor is it scientific. A dry phone book is soft enough to allow a bullet to fully expand, but it is hard enough to greatly impede a bullet to demonstrate harder than gel barriers. Position approximately 2" of dry phone book pages in front of a water jug. I took Ranger Talons in 9mm 147gr, .40S&W 180gr, and .45acp 230gr and fired them into this setup. All calibers expanded close to their advertized level in the phone book pages. However, neither the .40 or .45acp would penetrate all the way through the phone book to reach the jug. Only the 9mm was able to pass all the way through the phone book and enter the jug of water. So, the moral of the story is that the gel test does not always demonstrate the abilities of each caliber.

Perhaps there is a reason why virtually every country in the world uses the 9mm and have no desire to transition to anything else. Even Russia and China have now adopted the 9mm. So may militaries, so many police forces, so many opinions........the 9mm still reigns supreme.

Personally, my favorite loads are usually middle weigth bonded bullets. They are the most versitile in terms of barrier penetration, carry weight, and terminal effects. My first choice is Federal Tactical Bonded 135gr+P. My second choice is Speer Gold Dots 124gr+P.

 

[Ala Dan]

Read And Understand

"SHOT PLACEMENT IS PARAMOUNT"~!

No handgun round is a "one shot-kill 'em dead'er than hell" round, regardless
of caliber. With that said, there are many really good choices among ammo
manufactuers that will "Save Your Bacon". Most persons on this forum will
recommend one of three offering's; usually in the 124 grain 9m/m bullet.
These are: Federal Hydra-Shoks, Speer Gold Dots, or Remington Golden
Sabres. Personally, I prefer the same weight in the Hornady T.A.P. 9m/m
ammo~!

 

[SDDL-UP]

"...you will read about 40's and 45's not penetrating past the rib cage."

So what! I'm sure I can read stories about 9mm bouncing off a perps head to - so what. A couple of stories does not make a trend. No reason given the same exact circumstances that any of these rounds will not get the job done. 9mm is not going to penetrate substantially different (better OR worse) than 40S&W or 45ACP.

 

[Hauptmann]

So what! I'm sure I can read stories about 9mm bouncing off a perps head to - so what. A couple of stories does not make a trend. No reason given the same exact circumstances that any of these rounds will not get the job done. 9mm is not going to penetrate substantially different (better OR worse) than 40S&W or 45ACP.

Stories are one thing, police reports are another.

I'm not talking hydrostatic shock, BPW, or any of that other crap. A higher velocity projectile with a slim profile will in FACT penetrate hard barriers at off set angles or directly perpendicular shots better than a larger diameter projectile at slower velocities. I like this post from BrokenArrow:

"Boise, Idaho. 9-20-97. Traffic stop to shooting.

Brothers Craig and Doug Brodrick killed. Officers Winegar wounded, Stall killed. One brother took 25 hits of 45 JHPs in two volleys as he walked around his car, the other took 7 hits of 45 JHPs, of 52 total rounds fired by 7 officers. Brothers returned fire w 9 minimeters, wounding one officer and killing another in the 30 second gunfight.

Two holes are better than one hole, and one hole is better than no hole. Or is it?

BULLET PENETRATION - INCHES OF PLYWOOD (test blocks made up of half inch boards)

9mm Parabellum Inches

123 grain FMJ 4.4"
115 grain JHP +P+ 3.0"
115 grain JHP 2.7"
115 grain Silvertip 2.5"
80 grain Glaser 2.0"

.45 ACP Inches

230 grain FMJ 2.8"
200 grain JHP 2.4"
185 grain JHP 2.4"
185 grain Silvertip 1.7"
135 grain Glaser 1.3"

BULLET PENETRATION - INTERIOR WALL TESTS

Constructed of 2 sheets of 1/2" drywall mounted to 2x4" studs
on 16" centers.

Caliber Walls penetrated

9mmP FMJ 11
9mmP JHP 9
.45 ACP JHP 8

A blast from the past:

SPRINGFIELD ARMORY
RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT DIVISION
MEMORANDUM REPORT SA-MR 20-2100

L O Spaulding/lv

24 August 1948

SUBJECT:
Effective Penetration Range of 9mm Parabellum Ammunition.

OBJECT:
To determine the greatest range at which the subject ammunition will
penetrate the M1 helmet.

SUMMARY:
M1 helmets were fired at using different 9mm ammunition to determine the greatest penetration range. A Canadian 9mm Parabellum ammunition having a velocity of 1250 f/s penetrated the M1 helmet at 130 yards, which was further than any of the other ammunition tested.

REFERENCE:
Project TS2-7875-2024 J O 7875-6160

MATERIAL:

1. Weapons
a. Browning FN 9mm Pistol, HP Inglis-Canada, Serial Number 8T2367
b. Colt Automatic Pistol, Cal .45, 1911A1, Serial Number 1651407

2. Ammunition
a. Special 9mm Parabellum cases and Cal .38 S&W Special Bullets (Metal clad, 158 grains) and loaded to a velocity of 850 f/s.
b. Winchester 9mm Parabellum, 116 grain bullet, Lot WRA22026, 1,150 f/s instrumental velocity at 53 feet.
c. Cartridges, Ball, 9mm M1, 116 grain bullet (Parabellum) (Code T2CAB) Lot DIL- 617 (Canadian) 1,250 f/s instrumental velocity at 53 feet.
d. Pistol Ball Cal .45 M1911, Lot E C S25250.

3. M1 Helmets

4. Outdoor range facilities

PROCEDURE:
An M1 helmet was placed on top of a stake, back of which a target was set up to facilitate aiming and to lend support to the helmet. The 9mm Canadian pistol was then fired from a muzzle and elbow rest at the helmet. In the event the helmet was pierced, it was moved away from the shooter 10 yards and the procedure repeated until failure to pierce the helmet resulted. This procedure was followed with the special 9mm ammunition and with the high and low velocity 9mm ammunition. A similar test was run using a Colt Cal .45.

RESULTS:
1. The special 9mm Parabellum case with a Cal 38 S&W bullet penetrated the M1 helmet at 50 yards, but not 60 yards.
2. The Winchester 9mm Parabellum (1,150 f/s velocity) penetrated the M1 helmet at 120 yards, but not at 130 yards.
3. The Canadian 9mm Parabellum (1,250 f/s velocity) penetrated the M1 helmet at 130 yards, but due to lack of longer range facilities was not fired beyond this point.
4. The Cal .45 ammunition penetrated the helmet at 30 yards, but not at 35 yards.

CONCLUSION:
It is concluded that the Canadian 9mm Parabellum ammunition with the 1250 f/s velocity, had a longer range penetration power than any of the other ammunition tested.

Prepared By: L O Spaulding, Ordnance Engineer
H F Hawthorne, Ordnance Engineer
E W Hopkins, Head Ordnance Engineer"


Relying on the FBI gel tests as being the end all be all of substance penetration is a mistake in my opinion. As we can clearly see from other forms of tests the gel test does NOT account for the results of some LE shootings nor does it account for the capabilities of each caliber.

 

[Hauptmann]

The Thompson-LaGarde Cadaver Test of 1904 is an interesting blast from the past too:

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/background.htm

It is a testament to testing bias which went so far outside the realm of scientific and repeatable experimentation that it is laughable. Basically, when shooting adult cattle the large .45+ sized calibers didn't really do that much better than the higher velocity smaller calibers so they thought there was something wrong with their testing proceedures. After all, bigger is always better isn't it? It just doesn't make sense that a smaller high velocity caliber would do just as well as a .476 Eley at 288gr. So, they changed up the testing proceedures and came up with completely illogical conclusions to show that "bigger is better". If you look at their conclusions and how they came to them you'd think that they were heavily intoxicated or hired Marshall and Sanow to come up with their numbers.

 

[2ndamd]

Have you actually read the last link you gave to discredit Sanow and Marshall?

Anecdotal evidence may in fact not be representative of the whole. But, it certainly serves a purpose.
You are citing examples of shooting helmets off sticks and yet say that Marshal and Sanow are wrong for looking at ACTUAL POLICE SHOOTINGS?

That's funny.

I have no dog in this fight but I thought I'd help you out. As someone who is a social scientist I find your replies as unscientific and boadering on absurd. But, perhaps there is a plaace for shooting helmets off sticks? Perhaps.

No need to reply. I have no time or energy to have a battle over how to interpret data. It is so boring too.

Just shoot them 2-3 times with any handgun round and there should be no more problems.

 

[Hauptmann]

Shooting helmets off sticks is not a demonstration of terminal performance and I never said it was. What it is is a demonstration of barrier penetration.

M&S purposely skewed their data by doing everything from including non confirmed war stories to purposely omiting reports. They have been thoroughly denounced as being non trust worthy sources of information.

That's fine if you want to bash the messenger which is a common tactic of those that seek to discredit the information, but you would be using your time more wisely if you target the information with a convincing critique of your own. Quite frankly, your response doesn't say a lot for "social scientists".

 

[SDDL-UP]

Hauptmann,

The actual shooting is meaningless to me, unless you can duplicate it with 9mm and show me how it would have outperformed the 45.

True the 9mm may penetrate hard barriers better, and when I need to shoot a bad guy behind NINE walls I guess I'll wish I had a 9mm. Not bashing 9mm here as my favorite handgun is a 9mm CZ, but it's not substantially different (better or worse) than a 40 S&W or 45 ACP.

All other things being equal I'd rather take my chances being shot with a 9mm than with a 40 S&W or 45 ACP.

 

[.357 magnum]

Hi Southern Shooter!

The 9mm is a fine defensive round. I have found the Remington 124gr +P Golden Saber is an Excellent round after doing some research. It really shoots well and POA and POI are Excellent. The 9mm was meant to shoot 124gr so it really works well. The Winchester 124gr + P Ranger T is the Best. For all the guys turning this into a caliber war the .45 is my favorite round and yes it is more deadly then the 9mm. But if I am facing a threat, I feel plenty confident with one of my 9mm's loaded with 18 rounds of 124gr +P You take care Southern Shooter

The Best to You and Yours!

Frank

http://www.prestostore.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?ref=hotpig27&ct=65200

 

[cocojo]

That's easy, it's called shot placement. Only in the good ole USA is the 9mm not enough. Everywhere else in the entire world the nine seems to work fine and no one is complaining. Ya think they know the secret that shot placement is the answer. Pick up a good hollow point in 124+p Speer gold dot or the DPX Cor Bon or the ranger T rounds or the HST's and so on. Stop worrying about this issue and practice, practice and practice and then practice some more. Believe me if you put a 9mm between the wind and the water on a human, they will not know what hit them. Surgeons have stated many times that they can't tell the difference in bullet wounds with these three rounds. Enjoy your 9mm's and remember keep practicing.

 

[skarpenz]

The best advice is to hit what you shoot at.

Could not have said it better myself. That's all you need to know, plain and simple. Put bullets on target.

 

[-v-]

I'll throw my bone in hear in terms of preferred 9mm round. As 2ndamd said, the Federal BPLE 9mm +P+'s. 1300+ FPS at 115gr, essentially a .357SIG and/or slightly watered down .357Mag out of your 9mm. Definitely nothing to scoff at. Plus from personal experience with the P95 will eat just about anything that gets shoved in the chamber and ask for more. Thus, I would say its perfectly safe to run this hot ammo through the '95.

 

[obxned]

The 9mm will do the job if you are using decent modern JHPs and put them where they are needed.