Maybe the 9mm isn't very effective!

[bg226]

In one case, the subject attacked the officer with a knife. The officer shot the individual four times in the chest; then, his weapon malfunctioned. The offender continued to walk toward the officer. After the officer cleared his weapon, he fired again and struck the subject in the chest. Only then did the offender drop the knife. This individual was hit five times with 230-grain, .45-caliber hollow-point ammunition and never fell to the ground. The offender later stated, “The wounds felt like bee stings.”

In another case, officers fired six .40-caliber, hollow-point rounds at a subject who pointed a gun at them. Each of the six rounds hit the individual with no visible effect. The seventh round severed his spinal cord, and the offender fell to the ground, dropping his weapon. This entire firefight was captured by several officers’ in-car video cameras.

In a final case, the subject shot the victim officer in the chest with a handgun and fled. The officer, wearing a bullet-resistant vest, returned gunfire. The officer’s partner observed the incident and also fired at the offender. Subsequent investigation determined that the individual was hit 13 times and, yet, ran several blocks to a gang member’s house. He later said, “I was so scared by all those shots; it sounded like the Fourth of July.” Again, according to the subject, his wounds “only started to hurt when I woke up in the hospital.” The officers had used 9-millimeter, department-issued ammunition. The surviving officers re ported that they felt vulnerable.

Src: http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/2004/oct2004/oct04leb.htm#page_15

 

[MCgunner]

Deadmeat2 smells of troll.

Actually, this thread looked like a troll thread when I read the title.

I've yet to figure out how to fit a cannon in my pocket, but a 9mm+P does. I get 1260 fps/410 ft lbs out of a pocket sized 3" barrel. That's pretty close to 2" .357 magnum territory. The nine is far more efficient out of a short barrel gun than the .357 and probably a lot more effective for most shooters. The flash/bang/recoil of a pocket .357 is more than most can handle and you DO have to at least HIT the target. A .357 in the neighbor's house is rather worthless. You think the sonic boom is gonna kill him????

And, considering how close they are in performance, the 9 is much more compact than any .45, pocket size. I haven't seen any pocketable .45s, much less one that'll hold up to 13 rounds. I could go with .40, viable alternative, but I just prefer 9mm in a CCW because I CAN hit with it in a small weapon and I feel it's a little easier on the gun than a .40. Besides, I'm all set up for it, no dies for the .40, and I don't really wanna add any calibers unless it's just irresistible. I already have a .45 and dies, but carry a 9 or alternately a .38 special.

I personally met a man who's shot and killed three people with a 9mm. He owns a chain of convenience stores in Houston and he told me he hates thieves. He's been robbed at gunpoint three times. I don't know what those crooks were carryin', but I'd suggest they don't take this guy on even if armed with a .45-70. He shoots expert in IDPA.

 

[leadcounsel]

I prefer the .40 for self defense.

That said, I believe the 9x19 is the most sold handgun cartridge sold in the world and is responsible for the most deaths.

 

[Stainless Chili]

I've SEEN .32ACP bounce off clay sewer pipe, shooting at the town dump.
Then I sold my Tomcat,

But loading 9mm into my USPC9 seems fine, from a defensive point of view.
I have to find a balance between what is enough, and what my wife can also handle.

My 1911 shoots better than all the others, but .40S&W is my preferred cartridge, through the right frame. Again, it's a compromise thing.

The wife has a .22LR revolver, and I'll cover her with my PPK/S until the .223 is in my hands. And then the .308 will visit the fold. I hope I never have to explain why I suppressed a fire-bombing riot [forcible felony] with a battle rifle.

 

[usp9]

I agree...TROLL ALERT

One point to make is that this person is working in a MORGUE, and commenting on DEAD people. I'm not sure what difference dead by .50 BMG, or dead by BB gun makes... dead is dead.

Just another .40 or bigger opinion piece. In a life or death altercation, caliber is the LEAST important factor of all. Hitting a vital organ is what counts...period.

 

[Lou629]

In these never ending .45 or 9mm vs. every-other-handgun-caliber-in-the-known-universe debates, just as in the any-other-handgun-in-the-known-universe vs. Glock debates, everybody knows what is best for themselves. Every so often i suspect someone will hit this particular hornets' nest with a stick just to see the reactions. We have but ourselves to blame if that is the case.

 

[pcf]

That guy is the Ironman of medical examiners........8+ autopsies a day, helped ID tsunami victims, searches for cadavers, a ballistics and firearms expert......He should write a book, he'd be a modern day Richard Selzer....

Just because you want something you read to be true, doesn't make it so. Like everything on the internet a healthy dose a skepticism goes a long ways.

 

[buzz_knox]

A forensic pathologist, who has worked on several autopsies speaks his experience. Now to all those numbers freaks; seriously, you honestly cannot compare charts off the internet, to real life experiences that came from this guy. Plus, with the majority of law Enforcement ditching the 9x19, it seems to all make sense...

A good friend of mine was a pathologist/county coroner. He saw many gunshot victims, and swore by the 9mm.

Relying on one professional's opinion in matters such as this doesn't really count for much, as you'll often find an equally honest, reliable professional with a different opinion because there is a massive amount of subjectivity involved whenever the question is associated with "what's good enough."

 

[MCgunner]

Hey, I'm a professional. I had a job as a kid at the hospital where my mom worked, night janitor, and saw a guy walk in holding his guts in with his hands, shot point blank with a 12 gauge shotgun and drove himself to the hospital!

So, in my professional opinion, 12 gauge shotguns are worthless as self defense weapons, can't even kill at point blank range, saw this with my own eyes!

 

[cookekdjr]

That guy is the Ironman of medical examiners........8+ autopsies a day, helped ID tsunami victims, searches for cadavers, a ballistics and firearms expert......He should write a book, he'd be a modern day Richard Selzer....

I strongly suspect he works for the GBI state crime lab just outside Atlanta.

 

[cookekdjr]

Deadmeat2 smells of troll.

I sent him a reply. If he's from Atlanta, and he works in a medical examiners office, I either know him, or, at the very least, we have mutual friends. His ID will be exceeding easy for me to confirm.

-David

 

[buzz_knox]

Ask him if he ever worked under Pedigo. If he's from Knoxville, he'll understand.

 

[cookekdjr]

buzz,
sent you a pm.

 

[Dravur]

That's Why....

My Carry Gun;

It's an .88 Magnum.... It shoots through Schools....

My Mother hung me on a hook once... Once!

Haven't seen this movie in a long time, so if the quotes are not exact... Welll, Excuuuuseee meeeeee!

 

[GeorgiaGlocker]

Let me unload a full magazine from my Glock 19 at his family jewels with Speer Gold Dots 124 gr JHP and then let me read his report!

 

[Biker]

Okay Fellas...

For those who claim that shot placement is *all* that counts, why not carry a .25 apc?

It has plenty of penetration...

Biker

 

[gopguy]

In two words: shot placement.

Ditto that. Shot placement is everything.

For those who claim that shot placement is *all* that counts, why not carry a .25 apc?

Biker, you know better. You also need a reasonable amount of power decent sights etc. Not all shots are taken at 5 yards. Besides my wife is a doctor and I well remember when we were first married back in the 80s when she was in residency a weird story she told me. A prostitute came in to the hospital where the wife worked in Washington DC,with several .25 slugs under her scalp. A john did not want to pay up....shot her. The .25 did not penetrate the skull in this case. A 9mm parabellum probably would have. Of course had he shot her in the eyes or up the nose....

 

[critrxdoc]

With all due respect to Mr Moderator and the group, we have all heard and some of us have personally seen due to our occupation (even some at MCG!) the anecdotal lack of performance of almost any handgun caliber. Everyone gets lucky sometimes. But given the same shot placement, I believe deep down whether we all will admit or not, when the chips are down, we want the most kinetic energy possible to be dumped into the target. The only point that I am trying to make is that we should shoot the largest caliber we can shoot quickly, accurately, and consistently. Any bullet in any caliber can fail, but it seems to me that we should give ourselves the best % chance of success. For some shooters that may be a .38spec or 9mm, for others a .45 or 10mm. I am just concerned that the message to new shooters that all calibers are equal and if you shoot the 9mm just fine, than that is all you need. JMHO

 

[Deer Hunter]

"It's an .88 Magnum.... It shoots through Schools...."

I believe the movie is called "The man with one red shoe", correct?

Fantastic movie, very very funny.

A 9mm is fine with a good HP and nice shot placement. However, all pistol rounds are usually inadequate when it comes to stopping power.

 

[Biker]

Gopguy...

Just a bit of hyperbole on my part. My point is, all things being equal, a bigger bullet makes a bigger hole which increases your chances of doing greater damage which increases your chances of winning. I don't understand how this can be argued against.

Biker

 

[lurkersince03]

I think this thread needs some preventative maintenance.

 

[BullfrogKen]

critrxdoc said: Given that only 33% of LEOs hit their targets under catecholamine surge, we can only reasonably expect that we could do no better.

I'd disagree with that assumption. Peace officers do not represent the epidomy of gun handling and marksmanship. But let's not veer from the topic.


Handguns are marginally effective at best. All of them. Any reasonable caliber we would carry.

Even the 9x23 I carry, the .45, the 10mm. All of them. I'd feel just fine with a 9mm. In fact, I carry my 9x23 with the convertible 9mm barrel and 9mms from time to time. I realize I get an edge with 9x23, it is a little more powerful. But, frankly, the reason I like it, is the muzzle blast gives considerable more concussion and noise. It takes considerably more will to stand in front of those when they go off, and bystanders accustomed regular gunfire growing up in such environments aren't as willing to stick around when magnum calibers touch off.

 

[gopguy]

Just a bit of hyperbole on my part.

I figured it was.

It's an .88 Magnum.... It shoots through Schools....

My Mother hung me on a hook once... Once!

Actually it was Joe Piscapo in "Johnny Dangerously" I don't know why I remember that but I do....Just don't ask me what I watched last night..... Too many senior moments these days...:banghead:

 

[MCgunner]

With all due respect to Mr Moderator and the group, we have all heard and some of us have personally seen due to our occupation (even some at MCG!) the anecdotal lack of performance of almost any handgun caliber. Everyone gets lucky sometimes. But given the same shot placement, I believe deep down whether we all will admit or not, when the chips are down, we want the most kinetic energy possible to be dumped into the target. The only point that I am trying to make is that we should shoot the largest caliber we can shoot quickly, accurately, and consistently. Any bullet in any caliber can fail, but it seems to me that we should give ourselves the best % chance of success. For some shooters that may be a .38spec or 9mm, for others a .45 or 10mm. I am just concerned that the message to new shooters that all calibers are equal and if you shoot the 9mm just fine, than that is all you need. JMHO

You neglect the needs of proper concealment to meet the letter of the law and the needs of the armed citizen. A subcompact 9 happens to be the smallest, lightest service caliber pistol available. The .357 mag in a 2" is little more powerful than the 410 ft lbs I get from a P11 using +P. It fits in a large pocket and weighs 14 ounces unloaded, which means I will have it with me when the SHTF. My 35 ounce K frame sized .357 mag and my P90 will be at home in the safe in all likelihood.

Just a bit of hyperbole on my part. My point is, all things being equal, a bigger bullet makes a bigger hole which increases your chances of doing greater damage which increases your chances of winning. I don't understand how this can be argued against.

Okay, I'll attempt to go over it again. That .45 caliber pill is .451" in diameter. A 9mm is .355" in diameter. That means that the radius of the .45 is but 0.048" larger than the 9mm. So, if your bullet placement is .048" away from the heart further than your 9mm can reach, your .45 will knick the flesh of the heart???? IOW, if you believe that energy means nothing, only the diameter of the bullet, you are allowed .048" or approximately 5/100 inch more error in your aim. No, bullet diameter means diddly squat.

I do happen to believe energy is important, at the risk of starting another terminal ballistics argument. The old adage of 1000 ft lbs on target minimum for deer hunting is a good rule of thumb. Humans aren't a heck of a lot easier to kill than a deer, both thin skinned. That should give you a good idea of the lack of horsepower of most handgun loads in self defense scenarios, the .45 included. Even .44 mags don't break that 1000 ft lbs by much AT THE MUZZLE! Yes, bullet placement is the most important thing without a doubt. Heck, it's important in deer hunting, just that the deer ain't shootin' back! You can blood trail a deer if you have to. In a fight, you wanna stop the guy ASAP. That's real hard to do with a handgun of any caliber, but most of the major calibers from .38 up have pretty close to the same punch. One ain't a whole lot more effective than another. So, puttin' 'em where they'll count becomes all important and it don't matter what you think does the killin', energy or diameter or momentum, or whatever. In the end, weak as handgun calibers are, it all comes down to shot placement. You do, however, need a major caliber, .38 or larger. Messing around with mouse calibers that make less than 100 ft lbs is not wise. Even if you're a momentum guy, you can see my point here.

 

[lurkersince03]

Definitely some preventative maintenance.