I recently bought some 240 gr swc elmer keith style cast lead from MBC for plinking with my 44 mag handi-rifle. They have a brinell hardness of 18. Is this hard enough that I should not worry much about leading as long as I keep them to a reasonable speed? Using IMR 4227 and Starline brass.
MBC Elmer Keith 44
- Thread starter ldlfh7
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rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Yes.
rc
rc
Arkansas Paul
Member
If they are a good fit I would imagine you could shoot max loads with little worry.
savanahsdad
Member
a true Keith bullet was softer than that and he ran max loads , you should be fine , do these Keith STYLE bullets have a flat base or a beveled base ? a true Keith bullet will have a flat base and the crimp grove will be beveled both ways (up and down)
USSR
Member
ldlfh7,
No, Elmer Keith's SWC's did not have a beveled base; they had a flat base. Also, to be a "true" Keith SWC, they have to have 3 features: they will have a meplat of at least 65% of bullet diameter; they will have three full-width driving bands; and they will have a square-cut grease groove. Commercial casters take shortcuts like adding the bevel base and round bottom grease grooves which result in bullets that drop better from their molds and increase production.
Don
No, Elmer Keith's SWC's did not have a beveled base; they had a flat base. Also, to be a "true" Keith SWC, they have to have 3 features: they will have a meplat of at least 65% of bullet diameter; they will have three full-width driving bands; and they will have a square-cut grease groove. Commercial casters take shortcuts like adding the bevel base and round bottom grease grooves which result in bullets that drop better from their molds and increase production.
Don
Boxhead
Member
Which is why he included "style" I suppose.
blarby
Member
While a good bullet, the only "keith" about the MBC Keith is the meplat.
"Keith-style, but with bevel-base
for reloading ease"
Casting ease, actually- but hey, marketing works, and it sounds good to most folks.
All of the other original keith characteristics are missing.
With that said, you should be able to drive those bullets as hard as you want to.
The only real way to get true keiths in any quantity is to cast your own.
While I believe some of the features are overrated, a true flat base bullet has no equal( except perhaps a GC, which is in a sense, a non obturating flat base) in any cartridge, especially the 44.
"Keith-style, but with bevel-base
for reloading ease"
Casting ease, actually- but hey, marketing works, and it sounds good to most folks.
All of the other original keith characteristics are missing.
With that said, you should be able to drive those bullets as hard as you want to.
The only real way to get true keiths in any quantity is to cast your own.
While I believe some of the features are overrated, a true flat base bullet has no equal( except perhaps a GC, which is in a sense, a non obturating flat base) in any cartridge, especially the 44.
I shoot that same bullet with Winchester Large Pistol Primers, Winchester Brass and 22.0 grains of IMR4227. It is spot on accurate out of my Super Blackhawk with a 5.5" barrel. I love this loading.
The bullets have never leaded my barrel, and I have shot up to 250 in a day before cleaning. Good luck.
The bullets have never leaded my barrel, and I have shot up to 250 in a day before cleaning. Good luck.
Jlr2267
Member
18 BHN lead is for "magnum" velocities. The potential for leading increases if you push them too slow. They need a significant amount of pressure to deform properly.
I shoot the 240 "Keith Style" and the 240 grain "Smashers". Trust me when I say they will go though about anything but very hard steel.
I have had them travel through about 15 to 20 feet of hard ground, and then found them unaltered laying on the surface except for the lube groove was empty of lube. You could actually load them again it looked like to me.
I have had them travel through about 15 to 20 feet of hard ground, and then found them unaltered laying on the surface except for the lube groove was empty of lube. You could actually load them again it looked like to me.
savanahsdad
Member
wasn't the Keith bullet 14BNH ? I must be getting old 
because HandLoader Magazine just did a full story on the Keith bullet a few months back , and I think I read it twice 
or did I grab an old Magazine and read it a few months back .......... anyway .. you would need an old Lyman/Ideal mold to get the true Keith bullet, and most of the fakes (style) bullets work fine , I use Laser-Cast SWC in my 44mag and they work great
because HandLoader Magazine just did a full story on the Keith bullet a few months back , and I think I read it twice or did I grab an old Magazine and read it a few months back .......... anyway .. you would need an old Lyman/Ideal mold to get the true Keith bullet, and most of the fakes (style) bullets work fine , I use Laser-Cast SWC in my 44mag and they work greatUSSR
Member
Actually, Elmer's favorite 1-16 alloy for the .44 Magnum was only 11 BHN. The commercial casters have gone WAY overboard on making hard bullets and have convinced a good deal of the shooting public that they need their excessively hard bullets for magnum loads.
Don
Arkansas Paul
Member
+1
Good fit is the key.
I would bet money that more leading occurs as a result of too hard of a bullet than too soft of one.
savanahsdad
Member
yep , home now and that article on the Keith bullet is in Dec 2013 HandLoader , about 11BNH, 3 driving bands , flat base , square lube grove ,
Have you slugged your barrel? That is what you need to be concerned with and NOT hardness. Fit is 95% of everything in successful cast bullets (with 4.99% being lube). Unless you know the groove diameter and get bullets that are at least 0.001" over groove diameter, you are basically "shooting in the dark."
I have run 12BHN in .44 mag for decades without issue in 12" T/C Contender barrels.
If you are pushing velocity over 1800fps, you may need gas check bullets no matter what the lead alloy hardness.
Personally, I would give all the bullets a very light tumble lube in LLA (or White Lab's Xlox or 45/45/10) simply because the Alox creates a real barrier between the bullet and bore. I do this with any commercial cast bullets I buy that cause any leading.
Wouldn't it be nice to be able to get REAL Keith bullets?
I have run 12BHN in .44 mag for decades without issue in 12" T/C Contender barrels.
If you are pushing velocity over 1800fps, you may need gas check bullets no matter what the lead alloy hardness.
Personally, I would give all the bullets a very light tumble lube in LLA (or White Lab's Xlox or 45/45/10) simply because the Alox creates a real barrier between the bullet and bore. I do this with any commercial cast bullets I buy that cause any leading.
Wouldn't it be nice to be able to get REAL Keith bullets?
I shoot these bullets with IMR 4227 fed primers and starline brass. I shoot them thru my marlins as well as my smiths and super readhawk. Ive loaded from 20.5 gr 4227 up tp 23 gr. I havnt seen any leading and the bullet performs awesome. My pet load is 21.5 gr 4227. Super accurate in my marlin out at 100 yards no problem.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
I agree, it's not a Keith bullet, not even "Keith style". It's just a generic 240gr SWC. Which is fine, it's what I use the most of. It just ain't a Keith bullet.
Should have no problem with them at magnum velocities, as long as they fit.
Should have no problem with them at magnum velocities, as long as they fit.
You can get real Keith bullets, just not from MBC.
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