McCain Says Campaign Finance Reform More Important Than First Amendment

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McCain's is a disgrace, and I dont care about his "war stories", he is a disgrace.
This is the best the GOP can do????

They died being a reform party a long time ago.
 
McCain as president...that's scary. Another Clinton as president...that's even scarier. A 2008 election where the main candidates may very well be McCain and Clinton -- did I just wake up in the twilight zone?
Can you say Third Party?

I can, and you can, and about 1% of the voting population can and will. The rest will succumb to the fear the perceived greater of two evils, and so it goes every every election cycle until the end of the republic. :uhoh:
 
The First Amendment protects a citizen's right to unpopular speech, the most precious kind. Popular speech needs no protection. There is no requirement that such speech be the truth. It is left to the listener to determine the veracity of the speaker.

Campaign Finance Reform illustrates clearly that Machiavelli knew whereof he spoke.
 
He repeated his statement this morning on Imus. He said he would rather have a 'clean' government than free speech.

Great idea John!!! If the government becomes corrupt after we do away with free speech then no one will be able to do anything about the corruption because we won't be allowed to talk about the corruption.
 
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McCain says campaign finance reform is more important than First Amendment

Of course he does because it has nothing to do with finance........it's INCUMBENT PROTECTION.

The organized crime syndicate aka Congress has effectively shut down any opposition.:fire:
 
Money Does Not Cause Corruption

McCain is barking up the wrong tree with a cat. Money does not corrupt. Money is only one of many enrichment tools used by the corrupt. ONE MUST BE CORRUPT IN THE FIRST PLACE! The corrupt would be just as corrupt without money. All the McCain-Feingold Atrocity does is help hide the corrupt and make excuses for their behavior. It’s no different with guns and crime. Guns don’t cause crime, criminals cause crime. Just as guns are used for good far more than bad, money does wonderful things too! Even in politics. Open the floodgates, expose the corrupt, and run them out of office.

Woody

"The power of those in government to use common sense shall not be infringed. It is first, however, imperative to elect people to those positions of power who possess common sense. Remember that at the next election." B.E.Wood
 
RealGun said:

No it doesn't. It counters people's ability to tell lies about candidates when the election date is too close to contain the lies, possibly resulting in an unjust result. For the same reason, the Swift Boat folks are being contained with further legislation. Campaigns are simply too expensive to spend a large part of the funds on fighting lies from those with no accountability for them. "Incumbent Protection" means they are tired of what amounts to libel, especially from groups that enjoy tax free status, legislated by the very people they attack.

That statement pre-supposes that what is being used against a candidate ISN'T the truth - maybe it is, and they just don't want any last minute surprises that they can't have their spinmeister's "contain" and otherwise render useless. That statement also pre-supposes that the candidates who are seeking protection via CFR are a bunch of white doves who tell only the truth...which is nonsense. The fact is that virtually all politicians lie, whether in an attempt to get into office or to stay there (or to justify what they did while there). Lying was NEVER the issue, and was never part of the debate over CFR. Oh, and the fact that political candidates must be "protected" against lies assumes that we the people are simply too stupid to figure out that something is a lie, or to avoid voting a certain way without some proof.

The simple fact is that the 1st Amendment was proposed and ratified for one purpose - to protect political speech, mainly that directed against the powers-that-be (because speech BY the powers-that-be is never in need of protection). The very essence of the 1st Amendment has been gutted by CFR, since a bunch of "little people" that cannot afford to pay $100,000/minute for a TV commercial, or to have it written and produced, now cannot band together and do it...but it is OK for the media to say what it wants, no matter how biased it may be.

CFR is unconstitutional, period. That the USSC doesn 't recognize this by a 9-0 vote is indicative of the political corruption of those of its members who can't call a spade a spade because that spade is inconvenient to their side.
 
Sam Adams,

I think RealGun knows full well what he said is pure Republican spin.

The Republican party and its lap dogs have no choice but to try to explain away Campaign Finance reform. I think convincing people of this lie will be key to Republican strategy in 2008.
 
CFR is unconstitutional, period. That the USSC doesn 't recognize this by a 9-0 vote is indicative of the political corruption of those of its members who can't call a spade a spade because that spade is inconvenient to their side.

To be fair to the Supreme Court, this law was passed through both houses of Congress (elected representatives) and signed into law by the President (nationally elected representative). The Court has to be, and should be, very careful about overturning the results of 536 elected people who theoretically represent the will of the citizens of the United States. I'd agree that the reached the wrong decision here and should have overturned CFR.

At the same time though, I don't want nine people rejecting the will of the other two branches of government on a regular basis. Here I think they erred in not considering the President's comments that CFR was unconstitutional. I also think the President failed in his duty by signing a law, especially if he believed it to be unconstitutional.
 
CFR is unconstitutional, period. That the USSC doesn 't recognize this by a 9-0 vote is indicative of the political corruption of those of its members who can't call a spade a spade because that spade is inconvenient to their side.

Not sure what your context is here. My research says the vote was 5-4, the usual liberal versus conservative suspects.

The Supreme Court's Extraordinary Campaign Finance Reform Oral Argument
By MICHAEL C. DORF
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Wednesday, Sep. 17, 2003

excerpt:

Other Justices expressed greater sympathy for the concerns motivating BCRA. These Justices took seriously Congress's worry about the widespread, and arguably accurate, perception that members of Congress are for sale to the highest bidder. In their view, political speech should be protected against government interference. But they also believe that the ultimate point of political speech is to facilitate self-government. So, they conclude, if measures like BCRA are necessary to rescue representative government from the grip of wealthy campaign donors, then the First Amendment should not be interpreted to stand in the way.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20030917.html



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_finance_reform

On Wednesday, December 10, 2003, the Supreme Court issued a ruling that upheld the key provisions of McCain-Feingold; the vote on the court was 5 to 4. Justices John Paul Stevens and Sandra Day O'Connor wrote the majority opinion; they were joined by David Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and Stephen Breyer, and opposed by Chief Justice William Rehnquist, Anthony Kennedy, Clarence Thomas, and Antonin Scalia.

The Wikipedia discussion is comprehensive and very useful.
 
It is amazing to me that there can be anyone on this board that would support CFR or McKodos. McKodos is a more boring, drier, bleaker, stiffer, dumber, darker, scarier version of Clinton.
 
What RealGun and jfruser said.

And the 1st has been perverted in order to facilitate an increase in overall perversion in this country. I hold the same view as John Quincy Adams in that the Constitution was intended and must be exercized with a moral compass.

-----------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
Remember come voting time. This is the reason you don't want this person in public office.

Incumbent protection anyone?
 
What is the alternate plan to prevent having "the best government money can buy"?

Simple. Let's hold politicians responsible at the polls. They deviate from their promises and turn into their antithesis (GWB and RINOs come to mind)? Fine, kick them out in the next election.

The problem is the two-party system is so sick that anything they try to do with a CFR is just bandaging a leper. There can be no responsibility when your choice is limited to two evils that destroy the country in different ways, take your pick.

Break the two-party system, hold politicians responsible, regularly kick out incumbents, and the situation will improve. Stop voting for our country's destruction and calling it "the lesser evil".
 
RG said:
What is the alternate plan to prevent having "the best government money can buy"?
Transparency.

Every dime donated to a political party, candidate, or incumbent is reported and posted to the internet as soon as it is received.

There is no way we will ever get the big $$$ out of gov't. Gov't is just waaaay too big. It is in just about everyone's interest to try to influence policy, since gov't knows no bounds to its power (see Raich & Kelo).

At any time, whole industries or ways of life can be destroyed by an amendment to a bill that nobody read or a change in policy in the executive branch. NOT gettting hip-deep in the process & in congresscritters' hip pockets is a good way to get run over by the gov't juggernaut.

A case in point is Microsoft. In the 1980s, MS never felt the need to spend a penny on lobbying. Why should they? Gov't isn't regulating this hot, new market segment (Software in the 1980s), so why should MS bother? Well, MS did not want to mess with Uncle Sam, but Uncle Sam sure wanted to mess with MS. Fast forward to 2006. MS's is one of the most extensive lobbying efforts in DC.

The only way to get the big $$$ out of politics is to get the big $$$ out of gov't and gov't out of the regulatory business. The more & bigger gov't we have, the more & bigger $$$ will try to influence it.
 
Arrogance, Thy Name Is McCain

Link

Washington Examiner said:
Editorial: Arrogance defined by McCain

PDF | Email
The Washington DC Examiner Newspaper, The Examiner
May 2, 2006 7:00 AM (4 hrs ago)
WASHINGTON - James Madison, the prime mover behind the U.S. Constitution, and his colleagues among the Founders rightly feared arrogant men like Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., so they limited the central government to a few, well-defined powers. As further protection, Madison and the first Congress approved the First Amendment to the Constitution to protect forever the right of every American to freedom of speech, religion, press, assembly and petition.

Why do we think of the Arizona senator when arrogance is mentioned? Dictionary.com defines arrogance as “overbearing pride evidenced by a superior attitude toward inferiors.” McCain incited a blogstorm Friday with this comment, which epitomizes political arrogance:

“I know that money corrupts … I would rather have a clean government than one where, quote, First Amendment rights are being respected, that has become corrupt. If I had my choice, I’d rather have the clean government.”

An especially virulent arrogance lurks within the person who proclaims his or her particular understanding of something so imprecise as “clean government” to be preferable to the five core freedoms without which liberty and democracy are lost. McCain will protest this reading of his statement, but the First Amendment is too precious to keep giving him a pass on this issue, as too many in the media have done for too long.

Who decides when government is “clean” enough? How “clean” must government be before politicians like McCain will let the rest of us regain our First Amendment rights? Why does McCain think he knows what’s best for Americans better than we Americans do? History teaches the lesson our founders knew so well — those who put their private political vision above everybody else’s essential freedoms cannot be trusted with the reins of power.

What is equally striking here is McCain’s double standard. “Money corrupts,” he claims applies to the rest of us but it’s different when, for example, the money goes to the Reform Institute, a nonprofit run by McCain’s main political advisors. Don’t bother asking for the identity of anonymous “donor number eight,” because the Arizona senator’s buddies refuse to say. Being a nonprofit, it is legal for the group to keep its donor’s identity secret, but is the most famous name in campaign finance reform hiding something embarrassing?

Let it be noted that the 2006 congressional elections are subject to the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform law’s muzzling of political speech as expressed in advocacy spots within 60 days of the November vote. With barely two dozen or so races actually competitive, few incumbents now have reason to fear being defeated come Election Day.

Arrogant politicians like McCain show why Congress desperately needs term limits.
Examiner
 
I think you could get the desired result and in more sweeping fashion by imposing term limits on Congress or reverting to State Senate appointments. That would have to be a grassroots effort I guess, perhaps each State's choice, because they will not likely impose it on themselves by way of spontaneous Constitutional amendment initiative.

I would focus on the Senate, because the House already has members limiting their stay, and they are up for reelection more often. Some progress to the Senate, but once there, the tradition seems to be using incumbency as leverage to make a career out of it, becoming increasingly powerful through seniority and the committe assignments that go with it. Having power to exercise means increasing the likelihood of being hammered by lobbyists and the prospect of a distinguished gentleman's version of corruption.
 
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I think you could get the desired result and in more sweeping fashion by imposing term limits on Congress or reverting to State Senate appointments.

Term limits will not help if they only replace old liars with new liars. The buck should stop with the voter. If the voter is not willing to punish old liars and crooks, why would they punish young liars and crooks? If the voters know what they are doing, no additional laws are necessary.

That would have to be a grassroots effort I guess, perhaps each State's choice, because they will not likely impose it on themselves by way of spontaneous Constitutional amendment initiave.

Exactly. It is the duty of the voter to boot them.

using incumbency as leverage to make a career out of it, becoming increasingly powerful through seniority and the committe assignments that go with it.

They would not be able to abuse seniority of they get booted by voters who believe "evil is evil".

Having power to exercise means increasing the likelihood of being hammered by lobbyists and the prospect of a distinguished gentleman's version of corruption.

No matter how much the politician likes the lobbyists' money, if he wants to remain in office he will listen to the voters, so long as the voters know what they are doing.

We should not try to legislate the voter out of his responsibilities in the machinery of the republic. No voter responsibility means no voter power and no voter power means dictatorship, or plutocracy at best.
 
I couldn't help noticing how much you stressed voter competency to make your ideas work. I don't believe voters are sufficiently competent to fine tune who should remain in office. The whole issue of incumbency is built on the premise that voters don't know enough to vote someone out. All they know is a familiar name who managed to avoid scandalous headlines. They even want to make a rock star out of the likes of Bill Clinton, so don't ask to me about voter competency. They think politics is a beauty and charm contest...a bunch of well tanned slicksters in expensive suits. I used to be incompetent myself, so I know the difference.
 
I couldn't help noticing how much you stressed voter competency to make your ideas work.

Yes, it is an essential part. If people are not clever and determined enough to exercise their rights, they will lose them. It is inevitable. One cannot set up a system that is idiot-proof without producing some form of bloody dictatorship.

In the end, all nations deserve their government.
 
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