Michigan and title II

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According to Michigan Law I may not possess a short barreled rifle. I can't find any exceptions. Is there anything I can do to change the laws?

Cites:
750.Sec. 224b.

(1) A person shall not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, or possess a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle.

(2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both.
 
I am considering a subgun, (UZI, maybe) and was directed to this. Since an SBR requires a tax stamp (license), it might just be possible. Still have to do some checking..........

http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2006/01/mich_a_full_aut.php

Mich. a full auto state
Posted by David Hardy · 3 January 2006 10:14 AM
From Eric Larson, on subguns.com:

"Michigan Attorney General Cox issued Opinion No. 7183, dated December 27, 2005, which supercedes former Michigan Attorney General Frank Kelly's Opinion No. 5210, dated August 10, 1977.

Boiled down, it means that Michigan residents are legally entitled to lawfully possess NFA firearms and devices, as long as they are legally registered with ATF and ATF approves the transfer application (i.e., that the Michigan resident has no convictions that would prohibit possessing a firearm, and gets his/her paperwork signed by a CLEO or done through a corporation). Anybody who wants it should be able to obtain a copy of the foregoing Opinion by contacting the Michigan Attorney General's office.

Opinion No. 7183 clarifies that an approved application to transfer an NFA firearm or device meets the requirement under Michigan law as a "license" required to lawfully possess a machine gun. If you get the Opinion, and read it, it will answer all of your legal questions. I understand some folks are in the process of sending the Opinion to ATF to get it implemented in the National Firearms Act Branch so applications by Michigan residents will be approved. This covers all NFA firearms and devices, in addition to those classified as curios or relics."
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My understanding is that C&R short-barreled rifles and shotguns are legal in Michigan:

(3) The provisions of this section shall not apply to the sale, offering for sale or possession of a short-barreled rifle or a short-barreled shotgun which the secretary of the treasury of the United States of America, or his delegate, pursuant to U.S.C. title 26, section 5801 through 5872, or U.S.C. title 18, sections 921 through 928, has found to be a curio, relic, antique, museum piece or collector's item not likely to be used as a weapon, but only if the person selling, offering for sale or possessing the firearm has also fully complied with the provisions of sections 2 and 9 of Act No. 372 of the Public Acts of 1927, as amended, being sections 28.422 and 28.429 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

The provisions of section 20 of chapter 16 of Act No. 175 of the Public Acts of 1927, as added by Act No. 299 of the Public Acts of 1968, being section 776.20 of the Michigan Compiled Laws, are applicable to this subsection.
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I am considering a subgun, (UZI, maybe) and was directed to this. Since an SBR requires a tax stamp (license), it might just be possible. Still have to do some checking..........
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At this point, machine guns are being approved in MI, but SBR's (except for a C&R) are not. I believe there has been contact with the AG's office to extend this approval to SBR's, suppressors, and SBS's.
 
SBR's are still verbotten. Surpressors are still verbotten. That may or may not change. The AG's office has said they will release an opinion on this, but who knows when it will come out and what it will say.

Any pre-May '86 MG is now OK though. You still gotta do the Form 4 and pay the tax, but you no longer have to have a C&R license and be restricted only to C&R MG's.
 
I can't find anything about title II weapons in Michigan’s penal code besides 750.Sec. 224b. Section 3 of that area gives an exception to curios, relics and antiques.

According to federal law it is up to the ATF director to decide if a weapon falls into one of those three categories.

I highly doubt that a sbr or suppressor that was manufactured in the last 5 years is going to qualify as a relic, antique or curio. A machine gun could possibly fall into one of those three categories because its value is inflated.

Cite:
27CFR478
Subpart C_Administrative and Miscellaneous Provisions

Sec. 478.26 Curio and relic determination.

Any person who desires to obtain a determination whether a
particular firearm is a curio or relic shall submit a written request,
in duplicate, for a ruling thereon to the Director. Each such request
shall be executed under the penalties of perjury and shall contain a
complete and accurate description of the firearm, and such photographs,
diagrams, or drawings as may be necessary to enable the Director to make
a determination. The Director may require the submission of the firearm
for examination and evaluation. If the submission of the firearm is
impractical, the person requesting the determination shall so advise the
Director and designate the place where the firearm will be available for
examination and evaluation.

27CFR478

Subpart B_Definitions

Sec. 478.11 Meaning of terms.
Antique firearm. (a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a
matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition
system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of any
firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica
(1) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the
United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary
channels of commercial trade.
 
I can't find anything about title II weapons in Michigan’s penal code besides 750.Sec. 224b. Section 3 of that area gives an exception to curios, relics and antiques.

According to federal law it is up to the ATF director to decide if a weapon falls into one of those three categories.

I highly doubt that a sbr or suppressor that was manufactured in the last 5 years is going to qualify as a relic, antique or curio. A machine gun could possibly fall into one of those three categories because its value is inflated.
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You misunderstand. The way Michigan law was written said that private citizens could only own NFA weapons if we had a federal "license" to own such weapons. It was later determined that a C&R license was an acceptable "license" for the meaning of this law. That meant that a C&R holder could own a C&R machine gun.

I don't know if that also meant that a C&R FFL holder could *also* own a C&R eligible SBS or not. But, that's what Wdlsgy is refering to, I believe.

The good news is that AG Mike Cox wrote an opinion saying that for the purpose of legal MG ownership in Michigan, the federal Form 4 Tax Paid Transfer paperwork is the equivilant of a "Federal License" to own that machine gun. That means we are no longer limited to having to be a C&R FFL holder and owning only C&R MG's.

Cox's logic would *seem* to also apply to SBR's and suppressors, but the ATF is not approving transfers of those until Cox clarifies his ruling to specifically say that it includes those. We are now waiting for him to do so (or to say it doesn't apply).
 
My understanding is that short-barreled rifles and shotguns are legal in Michigan if and only if the firearms are C&R. I don't believe the owner needs an FFL of any kind.
 
My understanding is that short-barreled rifles and shotguns are legal in Michigan if and only if the firearms are C&R. I don't believe the owner needs an FFL of any kind.
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No. If C&R SBR's are legal in Michigan (and I don't know for sure they are) it would be because the C&R FFL is the federal "License" that is required under Michigan law. That's the same reasoning that allowed us to own C&R MG's, as long as we had an active C&R license.
 
Ok,thank you guys. I will give Mike Cox, Michigan Attorney General a call.
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Good luck with the AG office. You'll probably have better luck with the Michigan State Police Firearms Unit. Contact Deb Smith there at 1-517-322-5548.
 
I don't think the Michigan law requires a federal license, just a license. The legislature then failed to enact a provision to create and fund a licensing system for machine guns and sound supressors.

The '77 opinion stated that the FFL 03 (C&R) qualified as a license for C&R machine guns.

The recent opinion from Cox said that the current federal tax stamp qualified as a licence for machine guns.

I -think- that's how it all worked. I could be wrong.

Still, things are looking up in Michigan.
 
No. If C&R SBR's are legal in Michigan (and I don't know for sure they are) it would be because the C&R FFL is the federal "License" that is required under Michigan law.
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Read post #3. There is no requirement for the owner to have an FFL of any kind. Machineguns are a different story.
 
I thought the purpose of law was to put everything on the table so the people can understand what their responsibilities are? It isn't working in this case.
 
The machinegun and short barreled shotgun/rifle are not part of the same law. Machineguns were allowed because you can only have one if you are licensed. The AG's opinion is that the Form 4 when approved is a license. Short barreled rifles and shotguns are specifically forbidden unless the firearm in question is a curio & relic. This means that the Form 4 does not give you a license to possess one. There are exceptions for Govt. of course. The AG's opinion has no bearing on SBS or SBR as the laws are very different in how they are written. Having a C&R license has no bearing on possession.

This does allow for SBS and SBR that are C&R to be possessed. I have a SBR that was approved this spring as well as a SBS and a SBR that the forms are processing right now.
 
Ok, I stand corrected on the C&R SBR issue. I thought the reasoning that allowed that was the same reasoning that used to allow us to own C&R MG's and required we have a C&R license to do so.
 
Got a Mossberg 20ga with pistol grip....had to register it as pistol because of it's length....so I can carry it concealed with my CPL...under a duster with a stellar rig...
 
Just an update that you can file a form 1 to make a SBR or SBS out of a firearm that is a C&R in MI. The law says that the determination is up to the Secretary of the Treasury (ATF jurisdiction) So basically MI says that as long as the Feds say it qualifies, you can. I have three approved Form 1s. One is for a Sistema pistol so I can add a stock. The second is for a C&R eligible 10/22 Canadian Centennial rifle that I put a short barrel on. The third is for a 1952 manufactured Remington 870 that I put a short barrel on. I also have Safety Inspection Certificates for these as well since they must be registered under MI law. As long as the firearm is either 50 years old, or specifically listed in the C&R list, you can file the paperwork, pay the tax and put on a short barrel. I am the first to do so in the state of MI.

Just as with machineguns, most people, including the police, would tell you that it is illegal but they also used to tell you that it was illegal to own a machinegun. No law changed but eventually people had to prove that a C&R license was a license as required by MI law. Further, the AG opined that the Form 4 meets the definition of a license. But until the latest AG opinion, if you were to call the Michigan State Police firearms division, they would flat out tell you that Machineguns were illegal.

Read the law. If you look at the portion under short barreled rifle, it is pretty clear.
 
According to this Attorney General opinion you are correct about C&R possession.

Unfortunately, I purchased mine in Indiana on a form 4 and that isn’t possible to legally possess in MI. Although, the same gun without the stock is legal to possess in MI and you don’t even have to fill out any extra paperwork. Gun laws make so much sense :rolleyes:
 
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